Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net>]

Yes, as long as you don't identify the angel with G-d.  The angel was 
just an employee of G-d.  The angel was not "El".  "El" is another 
name of G-d, which no one can see, that is why G-d sent a 
"representative" of that aspect of Himself, which He called "El".

Shoshanna



Why do you think Jacob wrestled with an angel.  He wrestled with El.  
"Penuel" means he saw the face of El (and lived).


Lloyd Barré



--- On Fri, 2/6/09, aris hobeth <ahobeth AT yahoo.com> wrote:

From: aris hobeth <ahobeth AT yahoo.com>
Subject: ABH aris Jacob & Psalm 29
To: AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 1:21 AM






I take the Jacob's wrestling match with the angel to actually be a 
conciliatory (?) fight between brothers Jacob and Esau over (royal) 
succession. They seemed to have settled in a draw, perhaps a deal 
involving property and kingship. Jacob had come offering riches to 
his brother, from whom he had taken his inheritance, as a peace ploy, 
or as proof that he had done a better job than Esau would have. 
Rubbing it in his nose perhaps? But Jacob's gifts and his deference 
to his cheated brother, seems to have made peace between the pair 
(read the two states each ruled). The title "angel" given to flater 
his brother, seems to have sealed the deal. Better to make peace than 
war.

Sly Jacob also fathered Joseph, son of his favorite wife. Joseph in 
an obtuse way ended up virtual ruler of Egypt. Who was that favorite 
wife? Egyptian royalty? Jacob may somehow planned the ruse that 
allowed Joseph's brother's to appear not so inferior to that favored 
son, Joseph. Perhaps those Midianites who "bought" Joseph from his 
brothers, were actually sent by their father to gather up the star 
son, known to be chosen to become the powerful Egyptian ruler.

Later on, when Moses (a royal Egyptian of the ethnic group) wrote the 
history of previous successions, he was explaining the political 
boundries and their relations to the royal families. It was not a 
straight line of succession because the lands were inherited in 
different ways. Sometimes only the oldest son (a common theme) 
inherited everything. Sometimes, as in Joseph's family, each son got 
a patch of land, which often became separate states. 

And sometimes, when there were many sons, as in David's case, the 
sons vied to be chosen top dog, or they tried to eliminate the 
competition. When Absalom, David's oldest, died, the sadness may have 
been that he was David's favorite, the chosen successor, who turned 
traitor, or who failed to unseat his powerful father. Or actually, 
David prefered his favored wife's son, Solomon, and just allowed the 
death of the competition (unlike the bout between the brothers 
Jacob and Esau.) Certainly this is speculation, but the dynastic 
succession given in the Old Testament is just a history of the 
victors. Like any other history, the Bible tells about the generals, 
the kings, the wars, the politics, and the royal intrigues.

Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth

____________ _________ _________ __
From: andrej1234au <andrej1234au@ yahoo.com. au>
To: AncientBibleHistory @yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 3:31:14 AM
Subject: ABH Re: Psalm 29

Hi Mary

> The angel that wrestled with Jacob said he'd put
> his name on Jacob so Jacob's name became IsRAEL..

Well, it doesn't really say that an angel sought to put his name on
Jacob, merely that a man wrestled with him till daybreak and then
named him Israel as he had prevailed. This is the Hebrew language:
the root crh means 'to strive, to contend'.

It does interest me that none have seen this as the antipode of the

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