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  • From: Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
  • To: AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com, b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ABH aris Jacob & Psalm 29
  • Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 19:56:42 -0500

Yes, as long as you don't identify the angel with G-d. The angel was just an employee of G-d. The angel was not "El". "El" is another name of G-d, which no one can see, that is why G-d sent a "representative" of that aspect of Himself, which He called "El".

Shoshanna



Why do you think Jacob wrestled with an angel. He wrestled with El. "Penuel" means he saw the face of El (and lived).


Lloyd Barré



--- On Fri, 2/6/09, aris hobeth <ahobeth AT yahoo.com> wrote:

From: aris hobeth <ahobeth AT yahoo.com>
Subject: ABH aris Jacob & Psalm 29
To: AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 1:21 AM






I take the Jacob's wrestling match with the angel to actually be a conciliatory (?) fight between brothers Jacob and Esau over (royal) succession. They seemed to have settled in a draw, perhaps a deal involving property and kingship. Jacob had come offering riches to his brother, from whom he had taken his inheritance, as a peace ploy, or as proof that he had done a better job than Esau would have. Rubbing it in his nose perhaps? But Jacob's gifts and his deference to his cheated brother, seems to have made peace between the pair (read the two states each ruled). The title "angel" given to flater his brother, seems to have sealed the deal. Better to make peace than war.

Sly Jacob also fathered Joseph, son of his favorite wife. Joseph in an obtuse way ended up virtual ruler of Egypt. Who was that favorite wife? Egyptian royalty? Jacob may somehow planned the ruse that allowed Joseph's brother's to appear not so inferior to that favored son, Joseph. Perhaps those Midianites who "bought" Joseph from his brothers, were actually sent by their father to gather up the star son, known to be chosen to become the powerful Egyptian ruler.

Later on, when Moses (a royal Egyptian of the ethnic group) wrote the history of previous successions, he was explaining the political boundries and their relations to the royal families. It was not a straight line of succession because the lands were inherited in different ways. Sometimes only the oldest son (a common theme) inherited everything. Sometimes, as in Joseph's family, each son got a patch of land, which often became separate states.
And sometimes, when there were many sons, as in David's case, the sons vied to be chosen top dog, or they tried to eliminate the competition. When Absalom, David's oldest, died, the sadness may have been that he was David's favorite, the chosen successor, who turned traitor, or who failed to unseat his powerful father. Or actually, David prefered his favored wife's son, Solomon, and just allowed the death of the competition (unlike the bout between the brothers Jacob and Esau.) Certainly this is speculation, but the dynastic succession given in the Old Testament is just a history of the victors. Like any other history, the Bible tells about the generals, the kings, the wars, the politics, and the royal intrigues.

Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth

____________ _________ _________ __
From: andrej1234au <andrej1234au@ yahoo.com. au>
To: AncientBibleHistory @yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2009 3:31:14 AM
Subject: ABH Re: Psalm 29

Hi Mary

The angel that wrestled with Jacob said he'd put
his name on Jacob so Jacob's name became IsRAEL..

Well, it doesn't really say that an angel sought to put his name on
Jacob, merely that a man wrestled with him till daybreak and then
named him Israel as he had prevailed. This is the Hebrew language:
the root crh means 'to strive, to contend'.

It does interest me that none have seen this as the antipode of the

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