b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum
List archive
[b-hebrew] Is "Kiriath Arbe" in Genesis an Historically-Documented City Name?
- From: JimStinehart AT aol.com
- To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
- Subject: [b-hebrew] Is "Kiriath Arbe" in Genesis an Historically-Documented City Name?
- Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:50:42 EDT
Karl:
You wrote: “Again you are doing violence to the text. The Oaks of Mamre
overlooked the southern Jordan Valley. Where exactly that place was, we
don't
know, but it
was clearly in what later became southern Judea. There is no other way to
read the text.”
Your mistake is to think that Mamre is where Abraham witnesses the immediate
after-effects of Sodom’s destruction, and that Mamre “overlooked the southern
Jordan Valley”.
A. There are two reasons why Mamre cannot be the place where Abraham
witnesses the after-effects of Sodom’s destruction: location and timing.
(1) Location
Mamre is located at, or very near, Hebron, per Genesis 13: 18. On the
traditional view that Hebron is the city of Hebron, 20 miles south of
Jerusalem,
there is no view from Hebron. Neither the Jordan River Valley, nor the
southeastern shore of the Dead Sea, can be seen from the city of Hebron. So
Mamre is
not a possible locale for Abraham to witness the after-effects of the
destruction of Sodom in the Jordan River Valley. (On my controversial view
that Mamre
is located at the city of Aijalon, there likewise would be no such view.)
(2) Timing
Genesis 19: 27 tells us that Abraham gets up early in the morning to see if
Sodom has been destroyed. Since Abraham’s tent is pitched either at, or very
near to, Mamre, Abraham would thus get to Mamre very early in the morning.
The
text is clear that by the time Abraham gets to where he is going to see Sodom’
s destruction, Sodom has already been destroyed. Abraham witnesses the
immediate after-effects of Sodom’s recent destruction, which apparently
occurred
less than an hour before Abraham got to the spot where he could see the Sodom
area. So if Mamre is where Abraham went, then Sodom would have to be
destroyed
very early in the morning. But that is not possible. The angels talk to Lot
very early in the morning. But then the angels give Lot time to get his
family and his belongings together. Lot dawdles. Genesis 19: 16 Then after
the
angels whisk Lot outside of Sodom, there is still the question of where Lot
will go. Lot spots a small town in the distance, and asks the angels not to
destroy it, so that Lot can go there, instead of the angels’ original advice
to
head for hill country. Lot has to be quite far away from Sodom before the
angels can destroy Sodom. One of the angels specifically says to Lot:
“Hasten
thou, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither.'”
Genesis 19: 22 “The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot came unto Zoar.”
Genesis 19: 23 Only after Lot and gotten his family and belongings all the
long
way to Zoar, a considerable distance from Sodom (perhaps as much as 10
miles), was Sodom then destroyed, per Genesis 19: 24. Thus it is toward
mid-morning
before Sodom is destroyed. Abraham would have gotten to Mamre at Hebron very
early in the morning, so the timing does not work out right.
B. Beth-el is where Abraham in fact witnesses the after-effects of Sodom’s
destruction.
Here is the JBS1917 translation of Genesis 19: 27:
“And Abraham got up early in the morning to the place where he had stood
before the LORD.”
Beth-el is “the place where he had stood before YHWH”, in chapter 13 of
Genesis. We are certain that the mountain just east of Beth-el has a view of
the
Sodom area, because chapter 13 of Genesis tells us that. And indeed, a
mountaintop near Beth-el affords a panoramic view of the Jordan River Valley.
And
the timing is perfect, too, if the Patriarchs’ “Hebron” is the Aijalon
Valley.
That’s 17½ miles away. With no encumbrances, Abraham can rush over to
Beth-el in about 4 hours from the Aijalon Valley, averaging just over 4 miles
per
hour. Having gotten up very early in the morning, per Genesis 19: 27,
Abraham
gets to Beth-el at mid-morning, just after Sodom was destroyed, in plenty of
time to see the smoke from Sodom’s destruction billowing down the Jordan
River
Valley.
Note how the text makes perfect sense, once one understands the actual
geography involved.
By contrast, if the Patriarchs’ “Hebron” is the city of Hebron, 35 miles
south of Beth-el, Abraham could not make it to Beth-el in time to see the
immediate after-effects of Sodom’s destruction.
Everything like this in the text makes perfect sense, if and only if we
understand the actual geography that underlies the Patriarchal narratives.
Jim Stinehart
Evanston, Illinois
**************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.
Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out
(http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)
-
[b-hebrew] Is "Kiriath Arbe" in Genesis an Historically-Documented City Name?,
JimStinehart, 10/16/2008
- Re: [b-hebrew] Is "Kiriath Arbe" in Genesis an Historically-Documented City Name?, K Randolph, 10/16/2008
- <Possible follow-up(s)>
-
[b-hebrew] Is "Kiriath Arbe" in Genesis an Historically-Documented City Name?,
JimStinehart, 10/16/2008
- Re: [b-hebrew] Is "Kiriath Arbe" in Genesis an Historically-Documented City Name?, K Randolph, 10/16/2008
-
[b-hebrew] Is "Kiriath Arbe" in Genesis an Historically-Documented City Name?,
JimStinehart, 10/17/2008
- Re: [b-hebrew] Is "Kiriath Arbe" in Genesis an Historically-Documented City Name?, K Randolph, 10/17/2008
-
[b-hebrew] Is "Kiriath Arbe" in Genesis an Historically-Documented City Name?,
JimStinehart, 10/17/2008
- Re: [b-hebrew] Is "Kiriath Arbe" in Genesis an Historically-Documented City Name?, K Randolph, 10/17/2008
Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.