Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Dirk Frulla <fiveacorns AT yahoo.com>]

Harold,
Sorry for duplicating this. I just realized that when I responded, I forgot 
to hit "Reply to all", so it did not go back to the mailing list the first 
time. My appologies.
 
Thanks for the reply! I am glad that the last round of posts (and some of the 
friction by other members) didn't turn you off to the subject. Believe me, I 
sometimes fall short in choosing the right words to express my thoughts. 
Actually I was meaning to talk about Zechariah as well. I didn't want to 
include it in the previous post because the post was getting somewhat 
lengthy. 
 
When you say, "Again, the prophecy in Jeremiah about babylon's rule", I agree 
with you 100%. That was one of my main points. Jeremiah definitely spoke of 
Bablyon's rule, or in other words seventy years "for Babylon." So on this 
point we agree.  
 
The scriptures in Zechariah are dated the "eighth month in the second year of 
Darius" and the "fourth year of King Darius ...on the fourth day of the ninth 
month, which is Chislev" respectively. 
 
The historical consensus puts the reign of Darius from 522 to 486 BC 
(although I find some references that state 521 as the starting date for his 
reign). That would make the second year of Darius 521/522. By this time, it 
would have been 66/67 years since Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BC. The 
angel could talk about the LORD withholding mercy from Judah for "these 70 
years" because it was very close to 70 years since the temple was destroyed. 
The 70 years mentioned in Zech. are not the same as Jeremiah's 70 years. The 
reason I am comfortable saying this is because the scripture in Zechariah do 
not reference Jeremiah, however, the scriptures in Daniel and 2 Chronicles do 
- which necessitates the need for a connection between Jeremiah, Daniel, and 
2 Chronicles. The same would apply to the fourth year of Darius. By this time 
it would have been 70/71 years since Jerusalem's destruction. So I find no 
contradiction when the verse states the people of the
 land had been fasting for "the past seventy years". 
 
So these scriptures too agree with others and the historical consensus. Which 
is great! 
 
Thanks!
Dirk Frulla
New York



      
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Dirk,
>  However, we ought to note that RF correctly connects the complete 
> desolation of Jerusalem with the final conquest by the Chaldeans (in 587 
> BC, not 607), but he errs again when he stubbornly sticks to a ‘period of 
> 70 years’ for the Jewish exile, even though he is not able to present any 
> real evidence, simply because there is none. Let us just see how NASB 
> renders Daniel 9:2:
>  
> in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, observed in the books the number 
> of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the 
> peophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy 
> years. – Cf. also RV, ASV, RSV, AAT, Moffatt, Amplified, Rotherham.
>   

HH: The NASB text still can seem to imply that the desolations of 
Jerusalem will last seventy years. Now, this may not mean that the 
city's inhabitants went into exile for 70 years, although at least some 
of them did.

> END QUOTATION FROM Kristen Jørgensen 
>  
>  
>  
>  
> There are other Hebraists that have also published statements similar to 
> this. Professor Carl F. Keil states (emphasis added by inserting "****"):
> "With lemal'ot (to fulfil) the contents of the words of Jehovah, as given 
> by Jeremiah, are introduced. lechorbot does not stand for the accusative: 
> to cause to be complete the desolation of Jerusalem (Hitzig), but le 
> signifies in respect of, with regard to. This expression does not lean on 
> Jer. xxix. 10 (Kran.), but on Jer. xxv. 12 ('when seventy years are 
> accomplished'). charabôt, properly, desolated places, ruins, here a 
> desolated condition. **** Jerusalem did not certainly lie in ruins for 
> seventy years; the word is not thus to be interpreted, but is chosen partly 
> with reference to the words of Jer. xxv. 9, 11. Yet the desolation began 
> with the first taking of Jerusalem, and the deportation of Daniel and his 
> companions and a part of the sacred vessels of the temple, in the fourth 
> year of Jehoiakim (606 [error for 605] B.C.). ****
>  ****Consequently, in the first year of the reign of Darius the Mede over 
> the kingdom of the Chaldeans the seventy years prophesied of by Jeremiah 
> were now full, the period of the desolation of Jerusalem determined by God 
> was almost expired." **** (C. F. Keil, Commentary on the Old Testament, 
> Vol. IX, pp. 321-322; emphasis added by inserting astricies) 
>   


HH: Keil believed that the city's desolations lasted 70 years. He writes 
in his commentary on Daniel 9:1-2 (p. 321): "Jeremiah in two separate 
prophecies speaks of the seventy years, and not in the letter of ch. 29, 
but only in ch. 25, has he spoken of the seventy years desolation of the 
land."

On the page earlier (320) he writes: "The reign of Cyrus by himself over 
the kingdom which he founded begins in the year 536, in which year the 
seventy years of the Babylonish exile of Jews were completed."

Keil explains (p. 322) that "the desolation began with the first taking 
of Jerusalem, and the deportation of Daniel and his companions and a 
part of the sacred vessels of the temple, in the fourth year of 
Jehoiachim (606 B.C.)"

HH: Jeremiah's prophecy in chapter 25 is dated to the fourth year of 
Jehoiakim (25:1), which modern synchronisms suggest to NIV was 605 B.C., 
not 606 B.C. as Keil said. But the prophecy to Jeremiah evidently came 
the same year that Keil thought the desolation of Jerusalem began. He 
may have thought it ended 70 years later with the reign of Darius.

HH; I tend to think you have a point here over Keil because the word 
"desolation" is almost uniformly translated by NIV as "ruins," and it 
almost always refers to physical ruins. Keil is trying to give the word 
a partially spiritual rather than physical meaning, and the NIV 
"desolation" and NASB "desolations" in Dan 9:2 could support that. But 
the word really does seem to mean a ruining of the land in the sense of 
ruins being produced.
 
>   
>  
> On the other hand, there seems to be wide-spread agreement as to what 
> Jeremiah 25:11, 12 says. To date, I still have not found a single Bible 
> that would translate Jeremiah 25:11 as meaning anything other than 
> servitude for many nations. I do have to admit, that Jeremiah 25:11 could 
> read very differently in the Hebrew. Therefore, I contacted various 
> Hebraists and got one response from Ralph W. Klein at the Lutherian School 
> of Theology at Chicago. His Th.D. is from Harvard. He initially interested 
> me because he specifically lists Daniel and the books of Chronicles as 
> areas of expertise, and he is well versed in Hebrew. Please view all his 
> credientials here: 
> http://www.lstc.edu/people/faculty/individual/klein.html. I simply stated 
> my opinion, the current situation, and asked for his input. He responded, 
> "Clearly your reading of this verse is better. In Hebrew the second clause 
> begins with the conjunction and a verb, beginning a new thought." (personal
>  email dated 4/10/2008)
>   


Jer. 25:11 This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and 
these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

HH: "Wasteland" (or "desolate") is the same Hebrew word as the word in 
Dan 9:2 translated "desolation." In both places it could be translated 
"ruin" (Jer 25:11) or "ruins" (Dan 9:2).

HH: The prophecy in Jeremiah concerns what is about to happen to these 
nations, Israel included. We don't think that the land ceased to be a 
desolation before the end of the rule of Babylon. It is insistence that 
the desolation commence with 587 and end in 536 that makes the time of 
desolation less than 70 years. Keil argues that the desolation began 
with the conquest in 605 B.C., but that may be incorrect.

>  
> Here is one other reference (much thanks to Carl Olof Jonsson for providing 
> this valuable reference):
> Dutch scholar Dr. G. Ch. Aalders in his commentary on Daniël (Commentaar op 
> het Oude Testament) (Kampen: N.V. Uitgeversmaatschappij J. H. Kok, 1962), 
> page 200 writes the following:
>  "He does not give a literal quotation from Jeremiah, but it is clear that 
> he alludes to Jer 29:10, where the Lord says: 'when seventy years for 
> Babylon are over, then I will see to you, and my saving word to you will be 
> fulfilled by my bringing you back to this place.' And this is connected 
> with Jer 25:11, 12 where the length of Babylon’s domination is fixed to 
> seventy years, and where God’s judgement on Babylon and the land of the 
> Chaldees at the end of the seventy years is announced. As is seen, nothing 
> is said in the text of Jeremiah about the desolation of Jerusalem, but 
> Daniel has correctly drawn the conclusion that the restoration of his land 
> is indissolubly associated with the fall of Babylon, and that the end of 
> the seventy years of Babylon’s domination at the same time indicates the 
> end of the time of the desolate state of Jerusalem. This also explains why 
> he now, in the first year of the kingship of Darius, in particular is 
> thinking of
>  this: As the power of Babylon has come to an end, could it not now be 
> expected, in agreement with the word of the Lord in Jeremiah, that also the 
> end of the wrath of God, that is referred to in the vision that so strongly 
> had affected Daniel (8:19, 27), soon would become manifest?"
>  
>  
> In summary, I would like to re-establish the question. My original question 
> was regarding Daniel 9:2 and the word rendered "fulfull" ("complete" or 
> "accomplish") in various Bibles. In some Bibles (for example, NIV), the 
> seventy years of Jeremiah is equated with Jerusalem's desolation. In 
> others, the scripture directs the reader's attention toward the 
> relationship between the two periods (70 years "for Babylon" and the 
> desolation of Jerusalem). The relationship being that the two periods share 
> a common terminal point - the seventy years ends, thereby paving the way 
> for the end (fullfill, complete, accomplish) of the desolation.
> Why am I asking this question? There is definitely a period of 70 years - 
> but was it a period of desolation or was it of something else? If we say 
> that it was the desolation of Jerusalem was 70 years, then we have to 
> adjust the "consensus" historical chronology of the period in some way. The 
> consensus historical timeline has Babylon destroyed in 539 BC.


HH: If "ruins" does mean complete destruction, as it seems to, then you 
have a point. Of course, the rule of Babylon over Israel did last 70 
years, Somebody suggested that the temple was not rebuilt and  
consecrated until 516 B.C., and 70 years backward from there would be  
about 586 B.C.

HH: Zechariah clearly shows that the Jews viewed themselves as suffering 
for 70 years:

Zech. 1:12  Then the angel of the LORD said,  “LORD Almighty, how long 
will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, 
which you have been angry with these seventy years?”

Zech. 7:5  “Ask all the people of the land and the priests,  ‘When you 
fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh months for the past seventy 
years, was it really for me that you fasted?

HH; Israel clearly understood its punishment by God as lasting 70 years. 
The NIV Study Bible has a note at 7:5:

Since these fasts commemorated events related to the destruction of 
Jerusalem and the temple, the 70 years here are to be reckoned from 586 
B.C. Strictly speaking, 68 years had transpired; 70 is thus a round number.

HH: They have another note at 8:19 explaining how each fast memorialized 
a different event associated with the destruction of Jerusalem by 
Babylon circa 587 B.C.


>  It also has the Jerusalem destroyed in 587 BC. If Jerusalem was 
> re-inhabited a few years later (after the Jews returned home), about 537 
> BC, then we have a period of 50 years of desolation.


HH; The temple was not consecrated until 516 B.C (Ezra 6:15-18). The NIV 
dates the event as March 12th, almost 70 years after its destruction. 
The call to continue building the temple did not come until 520, even 
though the foundation was laid in  536 B.C., since there was an 
interruption.


>  I understand that some doubt can be cast on business tablets and 
> administrative documents that document the names of the kings, and the 
> succession of the kings. But 20 years worth? As far as I am aware, only RF, 
> in a previous post has claimed 90 "anomolous tablets" - but nothing as to 
> the nature of the anomolies. RF mentioned VAT 4956, and his work regarding 
> this tablet. I have also read articles that answer his
>  objections, re-establishing it's validity. Still, there are other 
> astronomical diaries (other than VAT 4956) that still indicate 587 as the 
> destruction of Jerusalem. 
> >From the previous corrispondence on this list I got the feeling that some 
> >thought I was attempting to disprove the scriptures. However, I am 
> >attempting to do the opposite. I am saying that Jeremiah had it right. He 
> >spoke very plainly, so that the translators of every Bible I have seen 
> >agree on what his words mean. He spoke plainly of 70 years of servitude to 
> >Babylon of many nations - and that's what happened according to all the 
> >historical evidence we have now. The later writers simply made reference 
> >to the end of the 70 years and the relation it had to Jerusalems 
> >desolation. They didn't try to re-interpret his words. I am saying if you 
> >read Jeremiah plainly, he got it right. If you read Daniel plainly, he got 
> >it right. If you read 2 Chronicles, the chronicler got it right. They all 
> >agree with each other and what we know of history - but only if the 70 
> >years is NOT equated with the desolation of Jerusalem as the NIV has 
> >rendered it in Daniel 9:2. 
> I know some of you don't like the idea of saying we know for sure, 
> historically, that 587 was the fall of Jerusalem. OK - I understand this. 
> But as of right now, there is a lot of evidence pointing toward 587/86 as 
> Jerusalem's fall, and it doesn't seem logical to wait for other material 
> that may or may not be discovered at some unknown point in the future to 
> move the date around; much less move it by 20 years.
> I lay the question back out on the table - now that it is shown the matter 
> isn't clear cut. In light of this, and especially the comments on Hebrew 
> grammar above, would it not be better to translate Daniel 9:2 more like the 
> NASB, rather than what the NIV shows for this verse? 
>   


HH: Maybe it would be more accurate. My own feeling is that the Hebrew 
suggests 70 years of devastation for Jerusalem in Dan 9:2 and seventy 
years of sabbath rest for the land in 2 Chr 36:21. Here is the NRSV for 
both verses:

Dan. 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the 
books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to the 
prophet Jeremiah, must be fulfilled for the devastation of Jerusalem, 
namely, seventy years.

2Chr. 36:21 to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, 
until the land had made up for its sabbaths. All the days that it lay 
desolate it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

Here is the Holman Christian Standard Bible, another pretty literal 
translation:

Dan. 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the 
books according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet that the 
number of years for the desolation of Jerusalem would be 70.

21 This fulfilled the word of the LORD through Jeremiah and the land 
enjoyed its Sabbath rest all the days of the desolation until 70 years 
were fulfilled.

HH: In 2 Chronicles 36:21 it is not just the 70 years that are being 
completed but the sabbaths of the land, apparently seventy years worth 
of sabbaths. As I said, these 70 years of punishment became the 
springboard for the prophecy of 490 years for Israel that Daniel gave (7 
x 70s years): Dan 9:24:
 

24 Seventy weeks are decreed

    about your people and your holy city—

    to bring the rebellion to an end,

    to put a stop to sin,

    to wipe away injustice,

    to bring in everlasting righteousness, (B)

    to seal up vision and prophecy,

    and to anoint the most holy place.

HH: Just as the prophecy of 70 years was about Israel, so the prophecy 
of 490 years was about Israel. Yes, Babylon would rule over them, but it 
was 70 years of rule over Israel. I see the problem you are having. The 
Babylonian rule began in 605 B.C. and ended in 536 B.C. That seems to be 
the end of the 70 years according to Jeremiah:

Jer. 25:12  “But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the 
king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their 
guilt,” declares the LORD,  “and will make it desolate forever.

HH: So the 70 years of Jeremiah may be different than the 70 years of 
punishment in Zechariah, and you may be right about the desolations not 
lasting as long as the 70 years of Jeremiah. The ruins of Jerusalem did 
not begin until 587 B.C., and its ruins could have ended with the return 
of the exiles in 536 B.C. However, the divine punishment was not 
completely over until perhaps the reconsecration of the temple in 516 
B.C. So the ruins in some sense may have lasted longer than the endpoint 
of Babylonian rule.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
>
>