Biblical Hebrew Forum

["John B. Senterfitt" <millenia05 AT earthlink.net>]

Shoshanna

Wrote as follows and I thought it interesting to see where the term "angel" 
might be used without a real direct, close connection to the Lord or God.

Harold I am getting tired of all this - and it's only Monday.

It doesn't matter (to me) that the first Christians were Jews if they 
either misunderstood Torah, or didn't learn it, or started making up 
their own beliefs, nor if you quote sources that are not Torah.

There is not one example in the Jewish scriptures where any angel, 
Satan included, opposes God's will, nor of a fiction named Mastema, 
who allegedly induced God to test Abraham through the sacrifice of 
Isaac.

You are right that his job is that of tempter - he tempts mankind 
away from obedience to G-d, so that when they choose G-d over Satan, 
they are thereby elevated - and that he was the one who tempted Chava.

But some day we will all be on an elevated spiritual level, and his 
job will be over.

If you are interested in a Jewish perspective, see 
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html

Shoshanna

KJV Exodus 33:2 And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out 
the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, 
and the Jebusite:

KJV Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the 
way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

KJV Exodus 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto 
the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the 
Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

KJV Exodus 32:34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I 
have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless 
in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

KJV Exodus 33:2 And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out 
the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, 
and the Jebusite:

Notice that these quotes are from the Torah.

And the question is, if an Angel could have this kind of authority then if 
Daniel's writings did come through the work of an angel, why should Daniel' 
writings not be on a par with Prophecy?

And I am not trying to give you a hard time. I just like to see those of good 
staunch Judaism start to question and then we all learn. After all some of 
the most devout followers of Messiah are of Jewish decent.

John B. Senterfitt
>From leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il  Tue Sep  5 14:23:08 2006
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Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:18:29 +0200
From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Yigal:  Daniel
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Have you ever read the bok of Jubilees, or even an introduction to it? It is
basically a midrash agadah on the time from creation to the Exodus. It does
not attempt to bring events down to the author's own time (which is sometime
during the Second Temple period), and as such does not supply a "calendar"
which can be continued into the future. It was also probably unknown to the
authors of Seder Olam, and as such had no influence on our present system of
counting.


Yigal Levin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shoshanna Walker" <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:13 PM
Subject: [b-hebrew] Yigal: Daniel


>I was doing some snooping on line, and saw that this counting of the
> years since creation, was calculated much earlier than the Middle
> Ages, as it is from the Book of Jubilees.
>
> Shoshanna
>
>
>
>
> Dear Harold,
>
> The so-called "Jewish" counting of the years since creation was calculated
> by a group of rabbis sometime during the early Middle Ages, and is
> recorded
> in "Seder Olam Rabba". As I'm sure you know, such a count is not
> referenced
> either in the Bible or in post-biblical literature, including the Talmud.
> Jews were perfectly content to use whatever "civil" year-count was used by
> the country they were living in: during the Israelite monarchy it was the
> reigning king. The two notable exceptions are 1 Kings 6:4, in which the
> building of the Temple is dated to the Exodus, and several places in
> Jeremiah, Daniel etc., in which years of the Exile are counted. My guess
> was
> that as long as the "civil" calendar had no religious significance, it did
> not bother the Jews, but after Christians started counting "years of our
> lord" (Anno Dominii) and Muslims by the Hegira, Jews felt that they needed
> their own "absolute" calendar, which would be MORE absolute than the
> gentiles', and so they "back-calculated" when creation was supposed to
> have
> occurred. As long as they were using biblical material as a source they
> were
> okay, but as soon as they got to the early Second Temple period they lost
> count - there were just too many kings, who were not recorded in Jewish
> sources. For example, Cambyses, son of Cyrus the Great. Also, they were
> not
> aware that there had been 3 kings named Darius and 3 named Artaxerxes. And
> so the whole Persian Period was "condensed" into just one generation,
> instead of over 200 years.
>
> So there is no way that the dates Shoshanna has been citing can match up
> with the dates in any history book that you are ever going to read.
>
> Yigal Levin
>