Biblical Hebrew Forum

[kgraham0938 AT comcast.net]

@ Steve

I sent this yesterday and it came back to me, so I am trying this again.

From: "Steve Miller" <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net> 
> Steve: Out of 60 QAL Z'Q uses, 7 (Jud 2:12; 2 Sam 19:4; 2 Chron. 32:20; 
> Esther 4:1; Jer. 20:8; Ezek. 11:13; Hab 1:2) take a direct object. In 5 out 
> of these 7, the direct object is the thing that was cried, i.e. a loud cry, 
> a great voice, violence. In the remaining 2, Jud 2:12 & 2 Chron. 32:20, the 
> direct object is the addressee. (Personally, I think in these 2 cases the 
> meaning is to summon for an emergency, but without authority as in the 
> Hiphil.) I don't see why these 2 occurances would make the Hiphil for Z`Q 
> totally different than the Hiphil for KRB, draw near. Both transfer their 
> action to an indirect object by use of the preposition el. Except that Z`Q 
> in 2 out of 60 cases does not use el. 
Response:  Well again, you can't wonder towards someone else.  In Jud 12:2 
(not 2:12) he says " I called out to you, but you did not save me..."  So 
here he called out to someone.
If you look at Judges 4:10 you'll see something similiar to Judges 12:2.
VAYYAZ:`"Q  BARAQ  ET  Z:BWLIZ V:'ET - NAF:TTALIY  and Barak summonded 
Zebulum and Naphtali.  Even though they are not being addressed you can see 
that Barak is calling out to someone else.
So I think this is based off of the use of the word itself within the Hebrew 
bible.  That is about as good as I can figure. 
--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net
>From crazymulgogi AT gmail.com  Fri Dec  9 13:08:35 2005
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Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:08:35 +0100
From: Herman Meester <crazymulgogi AT gmail.com>
To: Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 6:8
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>From kwrandolph AT email.com  Fri Dec  9 15:02:45 2005
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From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Zech 6:8
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Dear Steve:

You sound like you have read too much theological works=20
whereas I am simply a linguist. Theologians like too much=20
(for my tastes) to make mountains out of molehills, often to=20
defend predetermined outcomes. I don't own a theological=20
dictionary, and after looking at a few definitions in one or=20
two, I have been inoculated against ever wanting one.

Whereas English has grammaticized tense, Hebrew has=20
grammaticized mode and aspect: modes such as simple=20
active, stative, causative and their passives, and reflexive;=20
and aspect. The claim that these grammaticizations lead=20
to completely different definitions doesn't make sense,=20
unless your argument is that what I understand as=20
grammaticizations are really indicators for different=20
lexemes.

As for Zachariah 6:8, the unpointed text gives no=20
indication that this is a Hiphil verb, nor does the context.=20
The context indicates that this is a Qal verb, with the=20
person to whom the cry was made being indicated by the=20
accusative pronoun. As a Qal verb, there is no question=20
as to what the verse means, as a Hiphil, it leads to the=20
convoluted long discussion we've been having. Why=20
should we not recognize that this verse is another place=20
where the Masoretes got the points wrong?

As a translator, you might make such a case that a hiphil=20
grammaticization translates better using a different verb,=20
but in this case a translator speaks, not a linguist=20
analyzing the language itself.

Your argument was hurt by your admission, =93SM: Herman,=20
thanks very much. I did not know any of this. I can only=20
read English. I cannot read Hebrew, whether pointed or=20
not, well enough to understand it without helps.=94

In conclusion, it looks as if you are trying to defend a=20
theological dictionary, not the Hebrew text.

Yours, Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Miller" <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
>=20
> Thanks Karl,
> I appreciate your sharing the word $W(. This word is very similar to Z(Q,
> often used in the same verse. The difference seems to me to be that $W(
> involves humbling oneself while Z(Q does not.
>=20
> All the examples you give below where Z(Q does not mean a cry for help or=
 in
> distress are not the Qal form. The Qal form always is a cry for help or in
> distress. The Niphal and Hiphil forms are derived from the Qal, but would
> not be expected to have the same meaning as the Qal.
>=20
> The Niphal is always to be assembled for an emergency. That is the case in
> Judges 18:22-23. To be assembled for an emergency is to be made to hear a
> cry for help.
>=20
> The Hiphil is the question. One meaning is to assemble people or things f=
or
> an emergency, the exact active form of the Niphal. This is the case in
> Judges 4:13. Sisera assembled his chariots because he was being attacked =
by
> Barak.
>=20
> But there is at least one Hiphil that cannot mean "assemble" (Job 35:9).
> Jonah 3:7 probably means the king caused the people to cry out. Or maybe =
it
> could mean that the king assembled the people, but there is no direct
> object. In either case it was for an emergency. They believed Jonah's
> message that God was going to destroy them.
>=20
> The Theological Wordbook of the OT says re. Z(Q: 'The basic meaning of th=
is
> root is "to cry for help in time of distress."  It is used mainly in the
> QAL, but occurs a few times in the Niphal and Hiphil, where it carries
> distinctive meanings. ...
> In the Qal stem, the word is used almost exclusively in reference to a cry
> from a disturbed heart, in need of some kind of help. The cry is not in
> summons of another, but an expression of the need felt. ... In only one
> instance is the idea of summons involved, and that is when Jephthah called
> for Ephraimites to assist him against the Ammonites (Jud. 12:2). This is
> still a cry for help.'
> Yours,
> -Steve
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karl Randolph Wednesday, December 07, 2005 12:50 PM
>=20
> Steve:
>=20
> I will back up HH in this. Z(Q, though often used in the
> context that such a cry was a cry for help, was not in itself
> a cry for help. The word for "to cry for help" is $W(.
>=20
> In Judges 4:13, Siserah cried out, giving commands as
> the commander, this was not a cry for help. Again in
> Jonah 3:7 the king cried out, giving commands.
>=20
> In Judges 18:22-23, Mikah"s crying out was one of
> complaint, that the tribe of Dan was stealing from him.
> He was not calling out to them for help.
>=20
> Now if I did a full study of all the occurrences, I expect to
> find many more such examples. Basically, the verb means
> to cry out, and the context tells what is the content of that
> crying out.
>=20
> Karl W. Randolph.


--=20
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