Biblical Hebrew Forum

[sabbatical_rest AT comcast.net]

re:  until midnight tonight/Wednesday; here's a discount code for eBook 
orders at Varda Books
I'm submitting this FYI at my husband's suggestion. He's the Hebrew scholar 
in the family and the list member. Not me. So I hope I'm doing this right and 
my apologies if not.
We just learned that until midnight tonight (Wed. Nov. 30), Varda Books is 
having a sale on all of their 150+ (??) eBook  titles. Various Hebrew 
language books, Jewish history, culture, reference works are at the 
www.eBookShuk.com website and the check-out passcode GRAMCORD18 gets everyone 
who uses it a 50% discount until midnight. (I got my husband a Brown & Briggs 
Hebrew lexicon for even less, $20, using an additional code, BDBGC. But I 
think all other Acrobat PDF file eBooks on the site are exactly 50% with that 
discount code.) Most of the products there are offered at two or three levels 
of features such that one can for example also save money by getting 
read-only access without printing being available. But if you want printing 
of the eBook and all other features, you pay for a higher level license.
I'm not giving out any private discount codes here because these were handed 
out on literature from the Grammcord Institute exhibit at the recent American 
Academy of Religion conference. I checked before ordering (we saw a demo at 
the Institute offices today)  and they said that we did not have to prove 
attendance at the conference to get the big discount. It was some sort of 
introductory special but even then  half of the purchase price is donated to 
the Institute's Hurricane Katrina recovery fund that helps rabbis, 
professors, and students to replace their water-damaged books with software 
equivalents.
I'm probably telling more than is really necessary but all you really need to 
know is www.eBookShuk.com  for detailed descriptions of each eBook and and 
then GRAMCORD18 for the check-out code that gets you the big discount (except 
the BDBGC needed for the lexicon).  (Grammcord does not have any of this on 
their website because they said that it is such a brief  cooperative sale 
with Varda and they were occupied with other website projects needed for the 
holiday gift-giving season.)
Come to think about it I'm not exactly sure what time zone the midnight 
tonight deadline would be. So those interested in the special offer should 
probably not wait until late evening. We just wanted to help others get the 
same good deal.
Sarah Levi
>From tnaswg AT yahoo.com  Wed Nov 30 20:45:57 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 6:27 (time indefinite) II
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And who has spent three days or months in a hospital or prison and it was NOT 
an eternity? Unless doped up on morphine or such.
   
  Marc Bauer

"Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com> wrote:
  Dear Solomon,

>That may be so, Harold, for an English text written by an English speaker. 
>But the English Bible is a translation of a Hebrew text, so we also have to
>consider what "olam" meant to the Hebrew writers of the text. 
>
>Thus, it matters whether the Hebrew writers had in mind "eternity" as 
>Westernized English speakers understand it, or something else. And 
>if in the Bible
>it signifies "eternity" some times, did its Hebrew writers always use the
>term "olam" of things "eternal"? And if not, what did "olam" mean in those
>instances?
>
>"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was 
>about me for ever [l'olam]: yet hast thou brought up my life from 
>corruption,
>O LORD my God." -- Jonah 2:6 KJV
>
>In this occurrence, "forever" lasted for only three days.

HH: No, they did not necessarily use the word of "eternity" in every 
occurrence. I believe we know they did not in reference to some past, 
earthly texts, where the idea is "antiquity" or "of old." This Jonah 
2:6 text is interesting. Thank you for noting it, and it may be that 
the idea is "a terribly long time" from the perspective of a person 
who does not live under water. On the other hand, Jonah could have 
been saying that from an earthly perspective he was doomed; the earth 
with its bars was destined to be his prison forever (had not God 
intervened).

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
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>From tnaswg AT yahoo.com  Wed Nov 30 20:57:27 2005
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Dr. Kirk:
   
  Generally in history books, one finds dates and years. Very few in Genesis. 
Whoa. Are there any? Where is a king talked about including Ch. 14 which has 
several kings. And what nations are mentioned? Or will you let us simply have 
citystates as is the modern and critical consensus, if one dare call it a 
consensus. Are we going to call the geneologies/teledoth king lists? Please.
   
  And these questions are where translation = interpretation.
   
  Repectfully,
   
  Marc Bauer
   
  PS sorry for the lateness of response. No need to answer if you wish to 
forego.
   
  

Peter Kirk <peter AT qaya.org> wrote:
  On 15/11/2005 01:45, Yigal Levin wrote:

>Not only Exodus. The entire Bible, in all its versions (not just the MT), is 
>primarily a book about God's relationship with Israel. Some parts of it use 
>"historiography" as a tool to get that message across. Others use poetry. 
>Others use wisdom. Whatever the authors thought was irrelevant to their 
>objective - they left out. Their objective was NOT to teach us what WE think 
>of as history. We should always keep that in mind.
>
> 
>
You and Jack can assert such things as many times as you like, but 
unless you provide evidence you are not going to convince people like 
Karl, or even myself who is already in partial agreement.

Anyway, what do "WE think of as history"? If by this you mean an 
exhaustive record of all events, of course the Bible is not that, but 
nor are modern history books. If a modern author were to write a history 
of the people of Israel from earliest times, even if they had far better 
data than are actually available, that history would pass over the time 
in Israel, between Joseph and Moses, very briefly, as does the 
Genesis-Exodus narrative - for the focus of the book is on Israel, not 
Egypt. The modern author would probably want to relate this to specific 
Egyptian dynasties and dates, but then those are modern concerns, not 
the concerns of ancient Israelite historians. For historians they were, 
although like modern historians not without their specific purposes and 
biases. Why can't people accept this? Is it because someone once 
declared that Herodotus was the first historian and so no one earlier 
can be called a historian?

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

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>From farmerjoeblo AT hotmail.com  Wed Nov 30 23:53:55 2005
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Hi Peter,

What would you say the "prehistory" of the wayyiqtol form might be, ie 
its process of grammaticalisation?

I'm still sitting on the fence regarding this issue, but here's some of 
my thoughts. I understand prefixes to have often once been independent 
words. If this is true of wayyiqtol (I'm not decided yet), the entire 
form is now bound, sure, but once it may not have been. In other words, 
the fact that the form is now bound, even with a marker of definiteness, 
does not really prove one way or the other regarding whether an 
independent word (whether a marker of definiteness or something else) 
has become attached through regular use to the verb or not.

Now the grammaticalisation path of definite markers seems to be from 
anaphoric demonstratives. Since these deictic words are independent in 
Hebrew, this may point to a time when the prefix was not attached to the 
verb. This would probably be the case for whatever hypothesised word, eg 
'az etc.

Further, the matter may depend on at what stage wayyiqtol became 
grammaticalised, ie before or after the definite article in Hebrew (I'm 
here assuming this article theory for the sake of argument). If before, 
I think we would have to say that an independent word has become bound; 
but if after, we could say that the definite article came to be applied 
to the preterite\jussive verb.

Anyway, there's some thoughts. In the end, I'm not sure if we can prove 
the point from our texts. But stugying this area typologically would 
probably be fruitful. Cynthia Miller has some interesting things to say 
using a typological argument on the emergence of the definite article 
West Semitic; see:

Miller, Cynthia L. "Methodological Issues in Reconstructing Language 
Systems from Epigraphic Fragments." Pages 281-305 in The Future of 
Biblical Archaeology: Reassessing Methodologies and Assumptions. Edited 
by James K. Hoffmeier and Alan Millard. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2004.

Regards,
David Kummerow.

Ps. Dave: I've read your 1994 article and I'm troubled by your 
separation of syntax and semantics.



> On 30/11/2005 23:22, David Kummerow wrote:
>  >...
>  >
>  >2. Peter also suggested that wayyiqtols may be jussive forms without the
>  >the conjunction, a view promoted by DeCaen.
>  >
>  >
> 
> Vice versa, of course. And I don't rule out Herman's idea that there is
> also a definite marker in there. I am not sure whether that definite
> marker would imply that WAYYIQTOL is "a converted (i.e. secondary, not
> basal) form", Dave's description which I questioned.
> 
> 
>  >However, in my opinion the view that Hebrew word order is verb-initial
>  >must at some point deal with the grammaticalised makeup of the wayyiqtol
>  >form. If it is analysed as [conjunction + clitic + preterite verb], it
>  >points to an original X-verb structure, ie verb second, ...
>  >
> 
> No, I dispute this analysis. The definite marker is not a clitic, if
> this is to be understood as a separate component of the sentence which
> has become attached to the verb; rather it is more like a verbal prefix.
> 
>  >... whereas it is
>  >often assumed that wayyiqtol confirms a "VSO" word order, ie verb
>  >initial. But as I said, depending on one's theoretical stance,
>  >[conjunction + clitic + verb] may still be taken as verb initial clause
>  >structure. ...
>  >
> 
> Indeed, it is verb initial, for the "clitic" is simply a prefix.
> 
>  >... Nothing is ever easy...
>  >
>  >
> 
> Indeed!
>