Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

I think it's unrealistic to assume that the ancient cultures were so 
linguistically aware that they felt the need invent a writing system 
that accomodated for vowel changes through time.
Much more convincing is the assertion that the consonants stood for 
both consonants and vowels as the vowels were altogether predictable.



-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Yishmor Y
Sent: Mon 10/31/2005 1:46 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin and accent
 
Dave Washburn wrote:
    > [...] have lived in Montana, Indiana,
    > Colorado, Wyoming, Arizona and now Idaho,
    > and I have never heard the plural
    > pronounced as you describe it in any
    > of those places.

Karl Randolph wrote:
    > I took some courses in journalism, and
    > those professors told me that the
    > MidWest pronunciation is the best, the
    > one preferred for TV and radio announcers.

What is being referred to is variously referred to as the "Midwest 
Accent", "Standard Midwestern", as well as the "General American" 
accent. It is originally mostly limited to the region around Iowa, 
particularly East Nebraska, Iowa, and North West Illinois. Essentially, 
the speakers of this region are perceived by most people in the United 
States as "not having an accent" and because of this, this accent is 
adopted by many in the American television and radio news industries as 
well as actors. Tom Brokaw is often given as an example.

Karl Randolph writes:
    > This is getting off topic, but it is
    > illustrative: if we disagree so much
    > as simple and common as the
    > pronunciation of "women" [...] how
    > can we claim [...] that we can know
    > exactly how ancient people pronounced
    > their languages?

I'm not sure that we can be sure about the vowels. Vowels are far too 
variable (and a possible reason why the vowels were ommitted in some of 
these alphabets). The consonants, however, seem more constant <bg> and I 
think that much we can narrow them down to some high degree of confidence.

yismor busi


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Also, for what it's worth, the clearest american accent I have ever heard 
was that of an old friend from Georgia.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Peter Kirk
Sent: Mon 10/31/2005 11:35 AM
To: Karl Randolph
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin
 
On 30/10/2005 18:42, Karl Randolph wrote:

>... how can 
>we claim, as Randall Buth claims, that we can know 
>exactly how ancient people pronounced their languages? ...
>  
>

Has Randall Buth claimed this? From what I remember he recognised that 
there was significant uncertainty, but that his version represents the 
most probable reconstruction based on the limited available evidence.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

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>> Depends on how you pronounce the "r". It is possible with
>> the American pronunciation.

The American 'hard' "r" is itself a semi-vowel, so the vocalic quality
is subsumed in the consonantal; but the specific vocalic quality is that
of an unstressed 'short' "u", videlicet the schwa.

>> I have lots of American friends and I have never heard your claimed
>> pronunciation of women. Women is pronounced 'wimin' not 'wumin'.

> No, you got it wrong! It's pronounced "women" with the "o"
> like the "oul" in could, would or should, not "i", and the "e"
> as in men, again not a "i".

Karl, I have lived in the Midwest for 30 years, and for 30 years I was
an actor with formal training and practice in a wide variety of English
dialect, and I have never encountered this pronunciation of the plural.
The singular, indeed, has this pronunciation of the initial consonant
(except in some varieties of Mountain Southern), but the plural has in
my experience invariably a short "i". The "i" coloring in the unstressed
second syllable is of course a natural assimilation from the previous
stressed syllable. I observe that the American Heritage dictionary (all
I have here at the office) calls for a short "i" in the first syllable
and a schwa in the second.

> . . . the MidWest pronunciation . . . is considered the best
> American pronunciation.
Only by Midwesterners. In the first half of the last century the Midwest
dialect was widely adopted by professionals (actors, broadcasters, etc.)
as the least regionally marked of American dialects, and vigorously
promoted by speech teachers as an American equivalent of the King's
English. Since the sixties, however, the pressure for such a standard
has declined (as in fact it has in Great Britain as well), and the
prosodic deficiencies of the Midwestern dialect have become evident.

Stoney Breyer
Writer/Touchwood