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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] Dating Daniel

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  • From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
  • To: tladatsi AT charter.net
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Dating Daniel
  • Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 12:51:07 +0100

On 07/07/2005 06:52, tladatsi AT charter.net wrote:

...

2) The proposal that Daniel was composed mid-2nd century mainly lies in the fact that apocalyptic literature was in not produced much in the 6th century BCE but was produced much more extensively in the centuries following the 3rd century BCE. This argument may be wrong, but it is not circular.


When stated carefully like this, the argument is not circular. In the forms in which it is often actually stated, that there is apoclayptic literature from the 6th century BCE, it is cicular for the premise presupposes that Daniel is not from the 6th century. Whether circular or not, this is a flawed argument because it presupposes that it is not possible for just one book of a particular genre to survive from a particular time, a presupposition which is manifestly false when we look at other unique books which have survived from antiquity. There is in fact a good chance (if we avoid the faith principles discussed below) that Daniel is either a unique composition or a unique survival from the 6th century, which was rediscovered or became popular in the 2nd century and became widely copied.

3) Just as there is not textual claim in the book of Job that Job wrote the book of Job, nowhere in Daniel is it claimed that Daniel wrote to book of Daniel, or even that there was a single author. ...


Indeed, but there are claims within the book that certain parts of the book are the words of Daniel. In fact I think this applies to everything from 7:2 to the end of the book, and so includes the passages said to be prophetic of Antiochus Epiphanes - in fact these parts are presented as Daniel's reports of words spoken to him in the second person. So, while you might persuade someone like Karl that the book as a whole was composed or redacted later than Daniel's time, you will not be able to persuade them that these prophetic passages were originally written or spoken in the 2nd century or later.

...

4) Dating Daniel to either the 6th century or 2nd century does not in any way depend on the objective existence of God, the subjective acknowledgement of the existence of God, the acceptance of divine inspiration of the Biblical authors, or even the belief in prophecy. It is quite possible to believe that Daniel was divinely inspired and prophetic and that it was written in the 2nd century BCE, the 6th century BCE, both, in some other century, or in more than one century.
One?s personal principles of faith are not diagnostic as to the dating Daniel.


Here you have given only one side of the argument, when in fact there are three distinct faith positions which different people can take.

Some people, group A, believe that there can be no genuine predictive prophecy, and so generally hold that the "prophecies" were written after the time (ex eventu) and so not before the 2nd century BCE. Others, group B, believe that there can be genuine predictive prophecy.

Some people, group 1, believe that the book of Daniel is inspired by God and so an accurate account, and so hold that the latter part of it consists of genuine prophecies of a person Daniel who lived in the 6th century. Others, group 2, believe that the book is not inspired by God.

I will call those who are in group A and in group 1 "group A1". In fact I don't think there can be a group A1 as there is an inconsistency here - not so much in the dating, as these people could hold that the similarities between Daniel's account and the career of Antiochus Epiphanes is accidental, but because there are claims in the book to predictive prophecy which someone in group A could not accept and so they could not accept that the book is inspired.

Those in group A2 date these prophecies, and so the entire book, to the 2nd century or later.

Those in group B1 date these prophecies to the 6th century, although they may accept that the book in its present form is later.

Those in group B2 can in principle accept any dating for the prophecies and the book.

Jack, you seem to assume that everyone is in group B2 and therefore that faith principles are irrelevant. But you need to realise that there are a lot of people in group A2 and also a lot in group B1 (and probably relatively few in group B2). For both of these groups their faith principles determine their dating of these prophecies, presented as spoken to Daniel. And because these are deeply held faith principles on both sides, the differences are irreconcilable, certainly in discussions on a list like this one.

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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