Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>]

    Dear Thomas,
 
     It is not clear from your reponse below  what your position is about a 
temple in Jeruslem that according to HB was detroyed by the neo-Babylonians. 
Do you accept that such a temple existed,or do you consider it also one the 
inventions made up in Hellensitic times? If ,on the other hand, you accept 
the existence of such a temple, do you have an appreciation as to when it was 
built,   to what deity it was dedicated, and by whom?
   
  Have you responded to the very specific criticisms of K. A. Kitchen in pp. 
450 - 458 of his On the Reliability of the Old Testament? Surely these highly 
specific comments by a major scholar deserve an answer.
 
  If you're interested, I'll forward you offline an overview of an on going 
major archaeological site in Israel  -- Beth Shemesh --the findings of which 
support the existence of a stong central political body in the late 10th - 
9th century.
 
  Finally, I'm sure everybody would join me in wishing your wife a speedy 
recovery.
 
   Uri
 
     

"Thomas L. Thompson" <tlt AT teol.ku.dk> wrote:
Dear Yigal,
Well the Samaritans and their relationship to Judaism is not directly my own 
field, and it has only been a relatively short time that this question has 
taken up much of my time, but I will try to address your two questions, as 
both of them seem to me to be quite important.

2) This is an intriguing question. I think quite possibly that Gerizim is 
original to the Pentateuch. How early that is is another question that is 
partially dependent on a satisfactory description of its composition. I 
suspect, for instance that Genesis--or much of it--is later than, for example 
Exodus-Numbers. Whether the torah is common to Palestinian literature or 
whether it is adopted by Judaism is an important consideration. If it is 
common in its origin to both Judaism and Samaritanism, this might suggest a 
Persian period + chronology.
As for the status of Gerizim, the excavations strengthen the idea that this 
may be very early indeed. How early is something we will have to wait for 
patiently as--insofar as I have understood--they have not gotten down to 
bedrock yet, but 6th century is early indeed--far earlier than Jerusalem's 
temple.

1) I argued already in my Early History of 1992 that the populations of the 
regions of Judea and Samaria should be dealt with in separate but related 
histories from the Iron Age. Judaism seems to be the relatively latecomer, 
when one begins to consider identification and self-identity as Jews and 
Samaritans (that is, Shomronim)--a relationship of the older tradition of the 
Samaritans and the younger Judaism, which has many confirmations in the 
biblical traditions (see here my new book, The Messiah Myth, Basic, New York, 
April, 2005). Ingrid's 2000 book on the Samaritans deals extensively--and I 
think essentially correctly--with Josephus' treatment of the Samaritans as 
both tendentious and distorting.

Sincerely,
Thomas

Thomas L. Thompson
Professor, University of Copenhagen



Yigal Levin wrote:

Dear Thomas,

If you are willing to share them, I would be interested to hear your views
on the following two issues:
1. The role that the political division between Samaria and Jerusalem,
especially during the Persian Period but perhaps also during the Iron Age,
had on the development of Judaism and Samaritanism into two distinct groups.

2. As far as it is possible to tell from the archaeological and textual
evidence, when do you think that Mt. Gerizim attained its status as the
Samaritans' cultic center? Was it not only after the sack of Samaria by
Alexander and its conversion into a Greek city? Or is there evidence of it
having occurred earlier? Would this not then give us a date for at least the
inclusion of Mt. Geranium into the Samaritan Pentateuch?

Thank you,

Yigal



_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
>From tlt AT teol.ku.dk  Mon Mar 21 14:01:36 2005
Return-Path: <tlt AT teol.ku.dk>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail4.ibt.ku.dk (unknown [130.225.116.17])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A284E4C00C
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:01:35 -0500 
(EST)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6556.0
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Subject: VS: SV: [b-hebrew] Samaritans
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:03:10 +0100
Message-ID: <83AA9A8C573B3F49909FFE6827C3F5B6014E926F AT ibtmail4.ibt.ku.dk.ad>
X-MS-Has-Attach: 
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
Thread-Topic: SV: [b-hebrew] Samaritans
Thread-Index: AcUuO0/o3ijlmfT3RgOJ8MSX9Cs2CwAC2gX9
From: "Thomas L. Thompson" <tlt AT teol.ku.dk>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:01:36 -0000
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