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  • From: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Re:morpho-syntax, was Proverbs 5:16 a declaration or a question?
  • Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:53:34 -0600

Dear Karl,

Where in 1 Samuel 11:12 is there an unmarked interrogatory? I translate it as follows:

And the people said unto Samuel, “Who is the one who said that Saul will be king upon us? Allow us that we may cause them to die.”

MY - Who...? - is a marked question. Statements make up the rest of the verse.

HH: Karl, your translation makes no sense in the context. There were those who challenged the right of Saul to rule, and these people deserved to die in the thinking of many. But Saul said that no one was to die that day, since he had just won a great victory with God's help:

12 The people then said to Samuel, "Who was it that asked, 'Shall Saul reign over us?' Bring these men to us and we will put them to death."
13 But Saul said, "No one shall be put to death today, for this day the LORD has rescued Israel." (NIV)

HH: The challenge to Saul's rule came earlier:

1Sam. 10:27 But some troublemakers said, "How can this fellow save us?" They despised him and brought him no gifts. But Saul kept silent.

HH: So the people quoted those who questioned Saul's rule, not those who approved of Saul's rule. Let's look at a few other translations: Here is the New American Standard Bible:

12Then the people said to Samuel, "(R)Who is he that said, 'Shall Saul reign over us?' (S)Bring the men, that we may put them to death."

HH: Here is the Jewish Publication Society translation:

11:12 And the people said unto Samuel: 'Who is he that said: Shall Saul reign over us? bring the men, that we may put them to death.'

HH:Here is the New American Bible:

2 The people then said to Samuel: "Who questioned whether Saul should rule over us? Hand over the men and we will put them to death."

HH: Here is the New Revised Standard Bible:

2 The people said to Samuel, "Who is it that said, "Shall Saul reign over us?' Give them to us so that we may put them to death." 1

HH: All these Bibles takes the words as a question, so they agree with Gesenius. And don't accuse them all of copying Gesenius, since that was also the KJV interpretation. The KJV translators preceded Gesenius by a long time:

12 And the people said unto Samuel, Who is he that said, Shall Saul reign over us? bring the men, that we may put them to death. (King James Version)

Yours,
Harold Holmyard






As for Gesenius, he had a philosophical ax to grind, and it seems sometimes he departed from strict linguistic practices where they contradicted his ideology. I noticed that in his dictionary, but seeing as I have not cracked open any of his writings for over 20 years, I no longer remember the details.

How many times are what you call unmarked interrogatories forced on people by incorrect traditions and points? Seeing as the points reflect a tradition separated from the time the words were written by 1,000 years or more, it is almost certain that the pronunciations had changed, but careful copying would minimize changes in the written consonental text.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com>

Dear Bryan,

> "Not only does v. 16 not have any sign of a question, as George mentioned, it
> also features a clause-initial yiqtol form, which I think is highly unusual
> in an unmarked question, particularly in a question that is not parallel
> with a question.

HH: There is an unmarked interrogative with a yiqtol form in 1 Sam
11:12. There is a noun subject that precedes it, as it does in some
other cases, but I don't see that that is decisive. GKC #150a
lists Prov 5:16 as an interrogative sentence.

...

HH: I accept Gesenius. I cannot search for unmarked questions, but
they occur now and then, based on context for the most part.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
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