Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Schmuel <schmuel AT bigfoot.com>]

Shalom b-hebrew,

Plesae allow me to pull this over from b-trans, where they are a little 
busy :-)
I have tried to clarify the question a bit too...

> > Deuteronomy 33:6 (KJV)
> > Let Reuben live, and not die; and let *not* his men be few.

Polycarp
> Ex 33.6  Y:XiY R:)W.B"N W:)aL_YfMoT
> WiYHiY M:TfYW MiS:P.fR
> We have a poetic stich here.  The 2nd line being a parallel to the 
> 1st.  Note the similarity between YfMoT [YMT] of line 1 and M:TfYW [MTYW] 
> of line 2. The "let him not die" is played off against "his loins."
>
> The first line reads Let Reuben live and not die
>
> This is a jussive with the negative.  The second line of the stich does 
> not have the negative.  MiS:PfR (= "number"> SfPaR "to count") with the 
> negative it means "without number, innumerable", but without the negative 
> means "few."  <snip>

Schmuel

Thank you :-) and to Peter too for pointing out different elements in the 
passage...

I understand the parallel stitch, and thanks for the explanation, a friend 
confirmed
the same idea in aramaic, and many translations utilize it,
however my question for the forums continues as follows...

Since mispar means basically "number" or "count", in a way that can be 
ambiguous,
(e.g.Young's Literal Translation..Let Reuben live, and not die, And let his 
men be a number.)

.. and at least one Jewish commentary even talks about being (in) the 
count... the census ....
  ... .(Reuben would have enough men to be included in the census)

So, *if* one did not accept the double-duty negative,
   (which there is some difference of opinion on )
...and if one was just translating independently the second part of this 
phrase...

 I see at least three alternative translations, differing widely in meaning
   "may his men be few"
   "may his men be a number"  (implication - many)
   "may his men be (in) the count"

The result of (b) would be logically the same as the KJV verse ...

    Deuteronomy 33:6 (KJV)
     Let Reuben live, and not die; and let *not* his men be few.

  ... (allowing for a poetic negative in the KJV)

  ... while the other double-duty negative usage would also agree with the 
KJV,
      though for different reasons...
(though I don't understand fully why "not-mispar" becomes "not few" rather 
than "not a number")

It looks from the lexicon word count and a quick analysis, that mispar becomes
"few" or "many"/"abundant" either contextually and/or if there is a related 
qualifier in
the phrasing ....
otherwise the usage is closer to  the ambiguous "number", or "count" as in 
Youngs above ..

Is this (b-above) a valid alternate reasoning for the many translations 
that translate
like the KJV .. some like the Emphasized use the double-duty negative,
while others like Young's do not, yet both end up with very similar 
meanings...

e.g Emphasized Bible - Rotherdam
  Let Reuben live and not die, ---
  nor his men be easily counted

Young's Literal Translation
Let Reuben live, and not die, And let his men be a number.

Thanks.. rest included just for additional related research...
**********************************************************************************************************
> The Targum Onkelos reads "May Reuben live an everlasting life and not die 
> a second death."

I found some interesting commentary on this, I think it was John Gill on 
Revelation,
relating the Hebraic idea to the Revelations idea of a second death......
---------------
> Jouon-Muraoka, _A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew_, §160q (p. 609) states "The 
> negative of a verb can extend its force to a second juxtaposed verb . . ." 
> Examples from passages follow which does not include  Dt. 33.6 although no 
> claim is made to being exhaustive.

Strong evidence, allowance, for the KJV and similar translations ..
Polycarp was especially helpful and sent me the actual Jouon-Muraoka 
examples ... thanks ..


Schmuel AT bigfoot.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/