Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Schmuel <schmuel AT bigfoot.com>]

Hi b-hebrew,

Peter
> How
> often do English language poets use French words (that are otherwise in
> reasonably common use in English as loan words) to alternate with the
> original English words for artistic variation? That s the situation here,
> not an actual switch of language.
> I have heard it suggested that the Aramaic word is used here because this
> is a quotation of words addressed to Aramaic speaking vassals. But this
> seems less likely to me than artistic
> variation.

Schmuel

Thank you Peter .. 

And when does a "loan word" become part of the receiving
language ?

Those with savoir faire in linguistics (not me :-) might say that many
of these French words are now simply part of the English
language..

However, an amigo gave an example of a spanish word that is used
sometimes
in English as a "loan word", but it might be a stretch to call
it, today, part of English

Liz
>To have "bar"
you'd have to consider the poem to be late, Persian period probably is
when the
>Aramaisms crept into the language. 

Schmuel

Isn't the word "probably" important here .. probably is not
*definitely*.. 
   or even *almost certainly*
Haven't some conjectured other origins for the word to both languages
   (eg....some Canaanite or similar origin)
is it possible that  bar *may* have been in use at the time of David
and Soloman...

The fact is we *do* have the word bar=son in Proverbs 31, and a late
dating
for this Proverb is not generally the norm in scholarly and/or rabbinical
thought,
afaik..  

We *may* have it Psalms 2, and we are balancing linguistic, and
dating,
and literary poetic and textual issues together just to get a
"probability" that in
Psalms bar=son

The fact that this is more of an linguistic art and probability question
rather than a
"yes or no"  is important in my research because I come
against people 
who claim that bar=son is a deliberately altered mistranslation
... they also tend to add an ethical accusation to these
charges..

Trevor
>So, in this instance, I don't think we'd be dealing with a complete
change of language, but an >already existing word available in the
vocabulary of a Hebrew writer--perhaps an Aramaic loan, but >who
really stops and thinks about where all of our words come from?

This just came in, on an excellent post by
Trevor, and it expresses succinctly
one of my ideas above :-)

Many thanks to Trevor, Peter, Liz and other contributors...

Ironic Footnote
  The usage of son in  2:7 has been used both for and against
bar=son in 2:12 .. 
    
for          .. as it
creates the context of "Son" ..
     against   .. as 2:7 uses ben
..)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Levine
> dates P Persian primarily by the Aramaisms in P, such
> as degel.  Dahood believes
> the poem is 10th century.
> Liz

Schmuel AT bigfoot.com

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