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  • From: Schmuel <schmuel AT bigfoot.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu
  • Subject: Psalms 2 and Proverbs 31, loan words can add joie de vivre
  • Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:46:11 -0500

Hi b-hebrew,

Peter
How often do English language poets use French words (that are otherwise in reasonably common use in English as loan words) to alternate with the original English words for artistic variation? That s the situation here, not an actual switch of language.
I have heard it suggested that the Aramaic word is used here because this is a quotation of words addressed to Aramaic speaking vassals. But this seems less likely to me than artistic variation.

Schmuel

Thank you Peter ..

And when does a "loan word" become part of the receiving language ?

Those with savoir faire in linguistics (not me :-) might say that many
of these French words are now simply part of the English language..

However, an amigo gave an example of a spanish word that is used sometimes
in English as a "loan word", but it might be a stretch to call it, today, part of English

Liz
>To have "bar" you'd have to consider the poem to be late, Persian period probably is when the
>Aramaisms crept into the language.

Schmuel

Isn't the word "probably" important here .. probably is not *definitely*..
   or even *almost certainly*
Haven't some conjectured other origins for the word to both languages
   (eg....some Canaanite or similar origin)
is it possible that  bar *may* have been in use at the time of David and Soloman...

The fact is we *do* have the word bar=son in Proverbs 31, and a late dating
for this Proverb is not generally the norm in scholarly and/or rabbinical thought,
afaik.. 

We *may* have it Psalms 2, and we are balancing linguistic, and dating,
and literary poetic and textual issues together just to get a "probability" that in
Psalms bar=son

The fact that this is more of an linguistic art and probability question rather than a
"yes or no"  is important in my research because I come against people
who claim that bar=son is a deliberately altered mistranslation
... they also tend to add an ethical accusation to these charges..

Trevor
>So, in this instance, I don't think we'd be dealing with a complete change of language, but an >already existing word available in the vocabulary of a Hebrew writer--perhaps an Aramaic loan, but >who really stops and thinks about where all of our words come from?

This just came in, on an excellent post by Trevor, and it expresses succinctly
one of my ideas above :-)

Many thanks to Trevor, Peter, Liz and other contributors...

Ironic Footnote
  The usage of son in  2:7 has been used both for and against bar=son in 2:12 ..
     for          .. as it creates the context of "Son" ..
     against   .. as 2:7 uses ben ..)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Levine dates P Persian primarily by the Aramaisms in P, such
as degel.  Dahood believes the poem is 10th century.
Liz

Schmuel AT bigfoot.com

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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/


  • Psalms 2 and Proverbs 31, loan words can add joie de vivre, Schmuel, 03/22/2002

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