Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Walter Mattfeld" <mattfeld AT mail.pjsnet.com>]

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Kirk <Peter_Kirk AT sil.org>
To: Biblical Hebrew <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Dating the Pentateuch, Davidic Anomalies (1 Sam. 30:26-31)


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Walter Mattfeld <mattfeld AT mail.pjsnet.com>
> To: Biblical Hebrew <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 8:43 PM
> Subject: Dating the Pentateuch, Davidic Anomalies (1 Sam. 30:26-31)
>
>
> > Dating the Pentateuch: Davidic Anomalies (1 Samuel 30:26-31)
> >
> > It is my understanding that the Pentateuch is a part of a National
History
> > extending from Genesis to 2 Kings, thus, in order to date this National
> > History, as well as the Pentateuch, one must look at all texts, not just
> the
> > first five books of the Hebrew Bible.
>
PK: There are a lot of assumptions here. National histories grow. There is
> absolutely no reason why the Pentateuch (or at least an early version of
it)
> could not be dated long before Samuel.

WM: I am not arguing that the National History was created from "whole
cloth" out of someone's imagination in the 5th century BCE. I am aware that
many diverse legends and historical events of pre-exilic times are being
brought together, re-formatted, and re-interpreted to make a Theological
point with the audience.
> >
> > I am attempting to date texts not by comparing word forms and usages
> > (diachronic studies), but by noting the presence of towns and villages
> who's
> > archaelogical existence has been confirmed, establishing their dates of
> > foundation, occupation and abandonment.
> >
> > I note that 1 Samuel 30:26-31 mentions several villages whose elders
> > received spoils taken by a victorious David from the Amalekites. Three
of
> > the cities appearing in this list have been identified and their
> > archaeological parameters established. They are Jattir, Aroer and
Eshtemoa
> >  1 Sam. 30:27-28).
>
PK:Actually more than three "have been identified and their archaeological
> parameters established". What about Bethel and Hebron? You are simply
> choosing the three which best suit your argument.

WM: The topic of this paper "is anomalies," in regards to Davidic stories as
revealed by archaeology, so this is where my focus is.
> >
> > Jattir is currently identified with Khirbat `Attir, the pottery
sequences
> > suggest the city was not in existence in the days of David, the late
> > 11th/early 10th centuries BCE:
> >
> > "In 1971 the Levitical City survey found that the earliest occupation at
> > Khirbet `Attir was Late Iron II...Most of the Iron II pottery comes from
> the
> > 7th/6th centuries; the 8th century was also represented. The
> identification
> > of Khirbet `Attir with biblical Jattir stands. Although the
archaeological
> > evidence does not support an occupation of the site during the conquests
> of
> > King David, it was occupied during the writing of the Deuteronomistic
> > history." (ABD 3.650, John L. Peterson, "Jattir," 1992)
>
PK: For you to use this last clause in an argument for the dating of the
> Deuteronomistic history is circular reasoning. If we ignore the last
clause,
> this is just argument from silence.
> >
WM: What silence ? There is archaeological data of the Deuteronomistic era
but not of the Davidic, how is this "circular reasoning" ?

> > Joshua 21:14 suggests the town existed in the 15th/12th century BCE as
he
> > alotted it to the tribe of Judah, obviously this is an anachronism. The
> town
> > didn't exist in David's days either (1 Samuel 30:27).
> >
> > Eshtemoa is currently identified with es-Samu`, which lies 8 kilometers
> > northeast of Khirbat `Attir, southwest of Hebron in the hill country of
> > Judah.
> >
> > "The first to identify es-Samu` with biblical Eshtemoa was Robinson
> > (1841:626-627), and his identification has never been contested..." (ABD
> > 2.618, John L. Peterson, "Estemoa," 1992)
>
> Why have they never been contested? Why is Robinson's early 19th century
> pseudo-science still taken as gospel truth (even when the gospels aren't)?
> Are the Jattir and Aroer identifications also Robinson's?

WM: True, not all of Robinson's tentative site identifications have stood
the test of time, he based the identifications on the similarity of the
Arabic with the Hebrew or LXX Greek biblical names. On the other hand, the
majority of his identifications have stood up to later archaeological
investigations. In his day (the 1840's) he was not aware that "names move"
with abandonment of the Iron Age tells in the Hellenistic and Roman periods,
a fact discovered by modern archaeology. But to call his work
"pseudo-science" is rather harsh.
> >
> > Peterson noted that in 1971, Yeiven in the course of repairs to a 4th
> > century CE Synagogue at es-Samu, found two vessels of the 9th-8th
> centuries
> > BCE. This is the only "hard date" appearing in this article. If Eshtemoa
> is
> > not any earlier than this period, then it, like Jattir, didn't exist in
> > Joshua's days as a town to be alotted to Judah (Jos.15:50, 21:14). It
> didn't
> > exist in David's days either.
> >
> > Aroer is currently identified with `Ar`arar. The town doesn't appear in
> > Joshua, its only appearance is 1 Samuel 30:28.
> >
> > According to archaeological work done at modern `Ar`arah, believed to be
> > ancient Aroer, the site was unoccupied before the 7th century BCE:
> >
> > "Ar`arah was excavated between 1975 and 1981 by A. Biran and R. Cohen.
> They
> > concluded that this 5-acre site was first settled in the 7th century BC
> and
> > was occupied intermittently, until ca. AD 70. Though it is possible that
> > further excavations might uncover remains from the 11th or 10th
centuries
> > BC, it does not appear that `Ar`arah was occupied in the time of David."
> > (ABD 1.400, Gerald L. Mattingly, "Aroer 4," 1992)
>
PK: Mattiingly points out the danger of arguing from silence and warns
against
> drawing the type of conclusions you are drawing.

WM: Out of honesty, this is why I cited Biran's observations, I could of
omitted them, making my case appear stronger to the uninformed.
> >
> > Biran suggested that Tel Esdar, 1 1/2 miles away from `Ar`arah, might be
> > Aroer, as it did possess pottery of the 11-10th centuries BCE, the
period
> of
> > David. He suggested the name moved from Isdar to `Ar`arah when the
latter
> > was founded in the 7th century BCE (ABD 1.400, Gerald L. Mattingly,
"Aroer
> > 4," 1992)
> >
> <snip>
>
> I have a general, though perhaps unanswerable, question here about the
> settlement patterns in the area during the 11th-10th centuries. Were there
> settlements other than the supposed Jattir, Eshtemoa and Aroer? Was the
area
> unpopulated? Or was it populated by nomads? If the last, that would
explain
> why there were no permanent settlements at this time and yet be quite
> consistent with the account in 1 Samuel 30: at the time the names could
have
> been those of general areas of settlement, which later became the names of
> permanent settlements in the same areas. Any archaeological record of
these
> nomads could be scattered over a wide area.

WM: Archaeologists have determined that there are some sites in the general
area of Southern Judah of the 11th/10th century BCE (Iron I). During the
Iron Age the region was not full of wandering nomads who built no sites.
Some sites are Iron I, others Iron II.
>
> Peter Kirk
>
>
>
>
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