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  • From: shella <shella AT cswnet.com>
  • To: John Ronning <ronning AT nis.za>, old-school-baptist AT onelist.com, baptist AT MyList.net, Biblical Hebrew <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: Debtor to Brother Ronning on Isa. 7:14 and the Hebrew Texts
  • Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:09:02 -0700


Dear Brother John Ronning, thank you dear new friend for your kind and
helpful post.
Please do forgive my not replying sooner, but my memory is often not as it
should be. I
did not intend to be rude in any way. So let me address myself to some of
the very
important items which you have presented in your kind post.

John Ronning wrote:

> shella wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> > 10. What I seem to see developing is there is no known Hebrew text of
> > Isaiah
> > which does support the virgin birth of the Messiah founded upon Isaiah
> > 7:14. The M T Isaiah 7:14 supports the YOUNG WOMAN concept, but not the
> > Virgin only concept as the LXX and later the Greek New Testament does.
> >
>
> If you look in a decent Greek lexicon you'll see that parthenos need not
> mean "virgin"
> in the technical sense of a woman who has not had sexual relations. Ditto
> the Latin
> "virgo." The Hebrew na`arah would mean young woman; `almah (the Hebrew in
> Isa 7:14),
> like bethulah, would probably bear the connotation of "virgin" but is not a
> technical
> word for virgin (which as far as I can tell could only be conveyed by the
> expression
> "she has not known a man").
>

Debtor says: I understand your suggestion here, so let me ask you what you
may consider as
a "decent Greek Lexicon?" I am sure you are familiar with the monumental
work A Grammar
of the Greek New testament in the Light of Historical Researches, by A. T.
Robertson,
published by Broadman Press, Nashville, Tennessee; USA. My edition is the
1934 edition.
This work has nearly 1500 pages. In the introduction Dr. Robertson covers
the different
stages of how Biblical Greek has been treated. He follows the leads set
forth by both
Deissmann and Moulton. I follow Dr. Robertson in his conclusions and
concepts. How do
you feel about this work and the conclusions from the researches of Deissman
and Moulton?

The reason I am asking is that I feel there may be a tendency here to slide
back into the
already rejected area of Sacred Interpretation and use those already
disregarded Lexicons
of that era. One such would be H. Cremer's Biblico-Theological Lexicon of N.
T. Greek. I
reject this along with the concept of Sacred Interpretation and a supposed
Holy Spirit
Greek.

Therefore my choice for good Lexicons would start with the unabridged Liddell
and Scott.
I also love the works of A. Deissman, though he does not have a lexicon
properly
speaking. The same for Moulton and Milligan and their Vocabulary of the N.
T. Illustrated
from the Papyri and other Non-Literary Sources. I also use some of the
Buttmann-Thayer
works as well as some of the Arndt & GingrichÂ’s works also.

I feel it is important to stay with the primary definition of a word in
textual matters.
I realize there are secondary and figurative meanings, but do not feel they
should govern
us in our search for the usus loquendi.

I would appreciate knowing how you would feel about what I have suggested and
if you feel
these are acceptable Lexicons?

Liddell and Scott define parathenos as a maid, maiden, virgin. . . a girl,
yet unmarried,
but also of women generally. . . page 1094 from the Fifth Edition, Revised
and Augmented,
Oxford; 1864.

In my understanding of this term, it originally meant a young and pure girl,
but then also
this would apply to older women if they were maids and not impure from an
improper sexual
relationship. In other words, the issue of age is not the primary issue, but
sexual
purity. I realize this term may be used otherwise by scribes and copyists,
but such a
usage would not be in keeping with the basic meaning of the term and should
not govern us
in establishing the usus loquendi of parathenos.

Please do feel free to correct me if you feel I am in error. Thank you dear
friend your
your kind post and your important suggestions. May the Peace of Jerusalem be
upon the
Israel of God, and all her children, debtor.

>
> It is the juxtaposition of "`almah" and "pregnant" in the context of a
> really big sign
> (as high as heaven or as deep as Sheol) that suggests the idea that the
> miracle is a
> virgin conception. There's zero reason to suspect the Hebrew text.
>
> Regards,
> John
>
> ---
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  • Debtor to Brother Ronning on Isa. 7:14 and the Hebrew Texts, shella, 10/28/1999

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