Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Bryan Rocine" <brocine AT earthlink.net>]

Dear Rolf,

you wrote:
<snip>
>
> (3) Jer. 1:5  Before I formed you (YIQTOL) in the womb I
knew (QATAL) you,
> and before you were born (YIQTOL) I consecrated (QATAL)
you;
>
> YHWH spoke to Jeremiah (ST) and we may use this situation
as C. He referred
> to a point in the past (the forming of Jeremiah), and this
is RT. Because
> RT comes before C, the first YIQTOL *must* be past. We
learn that YHWH knew
> Jeremiah before RT, and if we like, we can call this RT1
(a reference,
> relative to  RT which is relative to C). Exactly the same
is true with the
> second YIQTOL and QATAL.

Not at all! Jeremiah refers to a point in the past, "I knew
you" (qatal); i.e. the qatal clause is the main clause.  The
"forming" is future relative to the time of this main clause
(even though past relative to the speexh act), hence beterem
yiqtol is used.

<snip>

> Let us now look at Jeremiah 47:1. The prophet wrote the
book, and relative
> to the time of writing he fixed a point of reference in
the past in the
> passage: "The word of YHWH that came to Jeremiah before
Pharaoh struck
> (YIQTOL) Gaza." What is the point of reference? As is seen
from the cases
> above, it cannot be anything else but the expression
"Pharaoh struck
> (YIQTOL) Gaza". This is a past event relative to the time
of writing, and
> "The word of YHWH that came to Jeremiah" came *B+RM* this
point of
> reference; i.e. it is past in the past (pluperfect)
relative to the time of
> writing. The conjunction "before" (B+RM) is simply a
device to express this
> relationship of past in the past as is seen in (4) and
(3).
>

Frankly, I believe you have once again mis-labelled the
relationship of the two clauses.  As in Jer 1:5 the beterem
clause is subordinate to the qatal clause.  Relative to the
coming of the Word to Jeremiah (a qatal describing a past
situation relative to the speech event), the smiting of Gaza
is not only past relative to the speech event, but it is
*future* relative to the time of the hayah in the main
clause.  "The Word of YHVH that had come to Jeremiah the
prohet about the Philistines  before Pharoah would smite
Gaza."  So the yiqtols in both Jer 1:5 and 47:1 are indeed
"future in the past."

Shalom,
Bryan



B. M. Rocine
Associate Pastor
Living Word Church
6101 Court St. Rd.
Syracuse, NY 13206

(office) 315.437.6744
(home) 315.479.8267