[NAFEX] no apples

Jacquelyn Kuehn jakuehn at verizon.net
Mon Jun 15 17:28:15 EDT 2009


For what it's worth, it could be something as simple as frost. We had a  
severe frost in our area mid-May, and that did in a lot of apple crops.  
Didn't seem to affect the pears, though.
Jacquelyn A. Kuehn
Musician, writer
http://www.pennsacreskitchen.net
www.wmugradio.org
11 AM-12:30 PM M-F (Eastern)



On Jun 15, 2009, at 10:48 AM, nafex-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Honeyberry sweetness (sourness) (Lon J. Rombough)
>    2. No apples this year (Richard MURPHY)
>    3. Bill's thoughful commentary (fuwa fuwa usagi)
>    4. Re: Carbaryl/Sevin [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] (Steve)
>    5. Re: Fruit trees under powerlines (William C. Garthright)
>    6. Re: No apples this year (William C. Garthright)
>    7. How to revive my apple tree (if possible) (Caren Kirk)
>    8. Re: chemical vs organic (Kevin Moore)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:49:11 -0700
> From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom at hevanet.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Honeyberry sweetness (sourness)
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <05482404034d13f6091c20b6b605371e at hevanet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> In this area, honeyberries (the Russian edible honeysuckle) blooms in
> early to mid February.  Haskap blooms as much as two months later.
> -Lon Rombough
> NEW grape pruning video: http://www.bunchgrapes.com/dvd.html View a
> short, low resolution clip here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q58zFY0B1M
> Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, at
> http://www.bunchgrapes.com  Winner of the Garden Writers Association
> "Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003.
> A video about The Grape Grower :
> http://cookingupastory.com/index.php/2008/04/18/the-grape-grower/
> On Jun 14, 2009, at 6:25 PM, William C. Garthright wrote:
>
>
>> As to ripening, Haskap ripens about with the earliest strawberries,
>> sometimes a bit earlier. They bloom later, yes, but it's warmer when
>> they do bloom which seems to speed development.
>
>
> Oh, heck, that would be great, then. I don't know when the earliest
> strawberries ripen, but mine start bearing in late May, and they're
> easily the first fruit I get (besides rhubarb, if you consider that a
> "fruit").
>
> But if they bloom "months after" honeyberries, and still ripen by May,
> honeyberries must REALLY bloom early!
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:46:05 -0700
> From: "Richard MURPHY" <murphman108 at msn.com>
> Subject: [NAFEX] No apples this year
> To: "nafex" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BLU136-DS71539FB836C581E627EFDEC3E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Holy Moly;
>
> Something went BAD WRONG.................
>
> Most of my apple trees have dropped their fruiting stems / future  
> apples !
>
> They fall off when I touch them. I'm sure this is due to a WRONG SPRAY  
> I DID.
> Weather has been almost all rain this year...
>
> Permethrin, right after petal fall, along with Lime Sulfur and mixed  
> with a little soap for surfactant.
>
> Then I saw, 'Don't use after petal fall' on Permethrin labels. Oh  
> no.... I thought Sevin was the only thinner.
> So who was it; the LS, Perm, or Soap ?? All the leaves are fine and  
> growing strong. (I also did Round Up, in the rows of trees. 2% mix of  
> 41% Glyph.)
>
> When I look this subject up, on the internet, there is never a  
> CONCRETE REASON backed up with TEST DATA to support this statement. I  
> hear 'un-clear' stories of mites... any connection? It looks too  
> well-behaved / homogenous to be a BUG deal... is it?
>
> DO ANY OF YOU KNOW FOR SURE WHY PERMETHRIN IS BAD AFTER PETAL FALL  
> ?????
>
> Me and my one apple per tree, thank you! I could hang myself...
>
> Every other crop is fine... Samdal Elderberries in zone 4 DIE BACK to  
> the Ground annualy. Don't do it.
>
> Sambucus Canadensis, York and Nova kick ass. I'm bringing the Samdals  
> down to Mass. to see if they grow.
>
> So, diversity of crops is very important, in case you massacre one,  
> like I just did.
>
> Murph
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:57:54 -0700
> From: "fuwa fuwa usagi" <fuwafuwausagi at muchomail.com>
> Subject: [NAFEX] Bill's thoughful commentary
> To: <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20090614205754.CCA798BB at resin11.mta.everyone.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Bill writes:
>
> Very interesting. But aren't you missing something? These things would
> happen anyway. At least, I assume that you're not buying a newspaper
> only to use as mulch? And your neighbors are going to do what they do,
> whether you use the leaves or not. These really ARE free inputs, unless
> you're driving to the neighbors to pick up the leaves.
>
>
> My reply:
>
> You must not have a liberal tree hugging BBQ circuit in your area.   
> The SouthPark episode on smug illustrates it well - LOL!
>
> Essentially to join this clique you must berate everyone who is not as  
> concerned as you with the environment and claim that if only everyone  
> did as you did global warming would be solved, famine would be  
> eliminate, your breath would be mintier and the grass hoppers would  
> chirp Kumbaya; of course this proposition ignores the fact that it is  
> unsustainable.  In my area, a city of 160K the free wood chips are  
> gone in in March...and to the best of my knowledge there are only 125  
> or so serious gardeners in the area, and only 18 that I am aware of  
> have gardens large enough you can can something off of.
>
> My point is if everyone attempted to garden as they or I do there  
> would simply not be enough resources available.  Now that does not  
> concern me, what concerns me is the attitude and the divorcement from  
> reality.
>
> Understand my example was only my strawberry beds.  The truth is I use  
> around 90 bags of chopped leaves a year plus all the compost I  
> manufacture myself, and I burn weeds to salvage what I can from them.   
> Not mention the amount of wood I scavenge to burn.
>
> tfb
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> The Free Email with so much more!
> =====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <=====
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:11:00 -0400
> From: Steve <sdw12986 at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Carbaryl/Sevin [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4A35C9D4.5000200 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>
> ADAMSON, Karl wrote:
>> Hi Ya,
>> I've killed young rootstocks by spraying them with Carbaryl.  If the
>> tree is already stressed, you may end up worse off.
>> I've no experience with partial sprays and their effect.
>>
>> Karl
>
> In that case, maybe it's just as well that it rained, unexpectedly,
> right after I sprayed it. I think I'll give it up now, since it's
> getting late in the season anyway. I'll see what drops and thin by hand
> later in the season.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:14:52 -0500
> From: "William C. Garthright" <billg at inebraska.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Fruit trees under powerlines
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4A36494C.1070606 at inebraska.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>> Next to the orchard is a field alternately planted in soybeans and
>> corn. I've never been able to see an increase in height under the
>> lines. I don't have access to harvest records therefore have no idea
>> about production increase or decrease under the lines.
>
>
> That's why I've always questioned this claim, too. Here in Nebraska,
> transmission lines cross and border crop fields all over the place, but
> I've never noticed any difference in the nearby plants. I don't know if
> it's been scientifically studied, but there's no obvious difference,
> that I could ever see.
>
> And farmers tend to be very unhappy about new transmission lines
> crossing their land. If it actually boosted yields, you'd think they'd
> welcome them (certainly along the edges of their fields). Well, there
> are other considerations, too, no doubt.
>
> Bill
> Lincoln, NE (zone 5)
>
> -- 
> A study by researchers at the University of Utah proves what many  
> people
> have long suspected: Everyone talking on a cell phone, except you, is a
> moron. - Dave Barry
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:33:20 -0500
> From: "William C. Garthright" <billg at inebraska.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] No apples this year
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4A364DA0.7070002 at inebraska.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>> Something went BAD WRONG.................
>>
>> Most of my apple trees have dropped their fruiting stems / future  
>> apples !
>
>
> Sorry to hear that, Murph. And it's particularly scary for me, because
> I've got so many different kinds of fruit trees crowded together that
> it's hard to avoid drift when I'm spraying (and there are very few
> pesticides or fungicides rated for everything, it seems).
>
> I've got some permethrin (Bonide Borer-Miner Killer), but I don't
> believe I've actually used it. Well, I have such a hard time finding
> pesticides I can use, I tend to collect as big a variety as possible.
> Yes, I see that it shouldn't be used on apples "after petal fall" (but
> you certainly wouldn't use it during bloom, would you?). But oddly
> enough, it's rated for pears in the summer.
>
> Not for apricots or plums, though, so it would be very hard for me to
> spray this on *anything* without getting it on apples, plums, apricots,
> or pluots.
>
> Anyway, thanks for the warning! I'm sorry to hear about your  
> experience,
> but you might have saved some of the rest of us from making that  
> mistake.
>
> Bill
> Lincoln, NE (zone 5)
>
> -- 
> Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock.
> - Will Rogers
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:40:46 -0400
> From: Caren Kirk <quirky at videotron.ca>
> Subject: [NAFEX] How to revive my apple tree (if possible)
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <C60521A8E1794315B8CEE04B9AD9CCE5 at Wanderer>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> In a previous post I lamented at the state of my golden russet apple  
> and reliance peach that I planted last year that did not leaf out.   
> Well, I think the peach has really had it, seems brittle and can't  
> find any green under the bark.  Probably should just get the  
> inevitable over and done with and remove it and plant something else.  
> RIP.
>
> However the apple, while having no leaves is still supple and if you  
> scratch away the bark, it's green underneath.  Does this mean that  
> there is still hope?  If so what can I do to regenerate it?
>
> Any suggestions welcome.
>
> Caren
> Slightly depressed in Quebec
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>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Kevin Moore <aleguy33 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <748094.8165.qm at web46016.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Rock Phosphate should do as well as bone meal. I can't speak to the  
> cost. If you have healthy humusy soil, you shouldn't need to apply it  
> more than every three to five years at the most.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Richard Harrison <rharrison922 at yahoo.com>
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:34:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
>
>
> Stephen,
>     Do you buy bone meal or use something else?
>                                                Richard Harrison, NW FL
>
> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Stephen Sadler <Docshiva at Docshiva.org> wrote:
>
>
> From: Stephen Sadler <Docshiva at Docshiva.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
> To: "'North American Fruit Explorers'" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:30 PM
>
>
>
> I agree about Donna?s letter!!
>
> Potatoes really do love that cottonseed meal.  I can get organic, but  
> it?s very hard to find elsewhere.  Since you?re not certified, why not  
> use it?  I?m comfortable with it vs. conventional chemicals.  I?m not  
> certified either, but I?ve heard it mentioned that I might be  
> certifiable?
>
> ~ Stephen
>
> From:nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org  
> [mailto:nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Richard Harrison
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 10:38 AM
> To: North American Fruit Explorers
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
>
> Donna,
>      Thank you for this amazing article ! I thoroughly enjoyed it! I  
> chuckled through most of it---mainly because it is SO true. You should  
> be a journalist somewhere--telling it like it is!
>      I think the first chuckle was when you said that Sevin is  
> considered one of the 4 major food groups. I rolled on that one!  
> There's SO much truth to that. I live in NW FL and understand  
> you--loud and clear.
>      As for the gulf between organic enthusiasts and chemical ones,  
> there's an old saying that MAY have some application here--when you  
> think about it long enough. The saying is "if you don't stand for  
> something, you'll fall for anything". Many people can be VERY  
> opinionated. I know, I'm one of them!
>      I have lived on the chemical side for most of my life--of 57  
> years. Last year I tried some cotttonseed meal on my sugarcane and  
> decide to increase the rate to double. THIS YEAR it was affordable to  
> buy versus chemical. Then I decided to try some cottonseed meal on my  
> Irish potatoes--knowing that potatoes like a lot of Phosphorus, rather  
> than Nitrogen(which the cottonseed meal is high in). Well we got some  
> drenching rains!  The potatoes with chemical fertilizer has been dead  
> and harvested for 2 1/2 weeks and it is just getting to be harvest  
> time on the potatoes with cottonseed meal. The plants stayed green  
> over 2 1/2 weeks longer!  The potatoes have better color(in the  
> ground) too, than the chemically fertilized ones.
>      So now, I'm gung-ho to try more cottonseed meal. I tell an  
> organic friend about mu results and advise her on where she can  
> purchase cottonseed meal and guess what response I get?  "Cottonseed  
> meal ISN'T ORGANIC!"    I thought to myself, "that's crazy!" But she  
> explains, "the cottonseed is probably BIOENGINEERED--( a no-no) and  
> the cotton was probably sprayed with Roundup and pesticides!  The meal  
> is CONTAMINATED.
>      Probably needless to say, I will NEVER be an organic gardener.  
> It's next to impossible to be an organic gardener---or certified  
> organic these days, certainly not on a commercial scale. I had thought  
> that I might try growing organic vegetables this Fall and sell them at  
> the Farmers Market, but no, I can't even call them organic without  
> breaking a law now. They have to meet arbitrary legal standards now. I  
> have to call them "naturally-grown" or something.
>       So, I'm no longer hyped up about organic gardening---again. IPM  
> sounds logical to me. We have a county agent that this is a part of  
> his job title "IPM Specialist".
>       But I guess we have "different strokes for different folks" as  
> Sly said in his song.
>       Personally, I look at food like the scripture says, " every  
> creature(referring to meat here---or food) of God is good, and nothing  
> to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving. For it is  
> sanctified by the word of God and prayer."  I try to pray over  
> everything that I eat. I don't know(for sure) what's in the food that  
> I eat(and literally noone does). But I know faith always works.
>       Some folks have faith in organic, some in chemical. Let's not  
> fight over which is right or wrong.
>        Donna, keep up the good writings. You brightened my day!
> Richard Harrison, NW FL
>
> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Kieran &/or Donna <holycow at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> From: Kieran &/or Donna <holycow at frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
> To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 11:13 AM
> ?
> Someone, I think it was Fluffy or maybe Alan who said organic people  
> are "unscientific".   That's not entirely true.  Most of us are simply  
> naive idealists who really believe that God or Nature is benign and  
> nice.  We have read that if we just improve our soil enough, that the  
> bugs and disease will go away.  That generally seems to hold true for  
> truck crops.  I haven't seen a bean beetle in years.  Fruit trees seem  
> much harder to deal with.  The borer for every species thing doesn't  
> help.  The curculio seem to have developed the perfect system, simply  
> ruin all the fruit for any other creature but let a few fruits hang on  
> long enough to make a few seeds for the trees to reproduce. Codling  
> moths aren't nearly as efficient.  Someone asked me at work about what  
> was eating the leaves on various species of veggies in her first ever  
> garden.  Two of us were interrogating her, as she was obviously  
> describing rabbit or deer damage.  the same bug does not attack
>  all those species, and each one does it's own very specific thing.   
> The older men in the family had simply gone out and dusted Sevin to  
> deal with all those other pests.  Here our worlds divide.  I adore  
> bugs, except for the ones I hate with a passion.  I could never spray  
> my garden with an insecticide, it would kill too many of my miniature  
> wildlife.  ( I don't have to go on safari to Africa or even use  
> binoculars to observe amazing creatures and great drama.  Try watching  
> one of those special spider wasps in action.  You know, the blackish  
> ones with the orange curly antennae.  Know what they use those  
> antennae for?  They feel the spider very carefully with them to find  
> the right spot to sting.  It's rather obscene to watch, esp as I am so  
> fond of wolf spiders. )  I know a great deal about all kinds of bugs,  
> including those that have no economic impact on me.  Tennessee  
> oldtimers don't know these things, they kill everything with Sevin.   
> That is
>  scientific?   I get a big kick out of explaining to oldtimers about  
> why the blister beetles they hate so much are only a mixed curse,  
> because their young feed on grasshopper eggs.  Once we got banties  
> running loose eating grasshoppers, the blister beetles became rare.
>     Sevin is one of the 4 food groups in Tennessee.  Never mind that  
> it is a neurotoxin that mammals can break down in their livers because  
> they have an enzyme that insects don't have.  Never mind that this  
> enzyme can be used up by repeated exposure or that certain medications  
> can use it up.  Never mind the reports in Organic Gardening, that  
> magazine for superstitious organic gardeners about how Sevin can last  
> 40 days in the garden in certain conditions.  Never mind the final  
> conclusion in the book A PLAGUE OF FROGS that it was the breakdown  
> product of a pesticide that interfered with the thyroid function in  
> the developing frogs and caused the limb deformities.  The researchers  
> working with the pesticide itself did not get these results, giving  
> the impression that it would not affect frogs.  Yes, there is also  
> some kind of amphibian infection running around that can do this, but  
> the Canadian researcher said flatly that in his years of sampling,  
> that only
>  farm ponds with lots of pesticides produced deformities.  Is it truly  
> scientific to assume that chemicals don't break down into intermediate  
> products out in Nature?  Some of us organic nuts are now bitter and  
> twisted, having realised that the world consists mostly of creatures  
> saying gimme.  We watch longingly the simple lives of chemical users,  
> but are still only too aware that the miracle of modern chemistry is  
> biting America's backside in the rates of cancer and other health  
> problems.
>     This is not intended as an attack on anyone on this group, I am  
> merely addressing the great divide in Nafex.  Never mind politics, we  
> don't go to Nafex meetings and then immediately try to figure out  
> whether we are talking to a Dem or Rep, we want to know if we are  
> talking with someone who grows resistant stuff or who grows the best  
> of everything and sprays.  Both groups start out naive, but one trusts  
> the chemical companies and sprays, the other puts their faith in  
> Nature and doesn't spray.  Both get rewards, but often the organic  
> bunch have to do a whole lot more learning first.  Personally, I would  
> love to see the concept of IPM agriculture blossom.  I would love to  
> be able to buy IPM produce in my local grocery.  But somehow the  
> concept has never gotten major attention among consumers and  
> publications to consumers.  IPM is definitely the most scientific form  
> of agriculture in my opinion.  It is based on the intersection of 3  
> realities, economic
>  reality, and the knowlege of biology and chemistry.
>     I suppose this is the foundation for an article I have long wanted  
> to write for Pomona but never could quite figure out how to approach.   
> The divide in Nafex between the organic and the chemical people is  
> quite deep.  People have their minds as made up already as they did in  
> the last election.  I soon discovered last year that I could only  
> discuss politics with like minded people, that there were no  
> discussions between sides, only arguments.  I think the divide is  
> addressed by the Meyers-Briggs, Kiersey-Bates personality tests.  The  
> division is between the 25% of the population who see the forest, and  
> the 75% who see the trees.  Between the big picture and the details.   
> The big picture people think the detail people are idiots because they  
> can't grasp the implications of what they do.  The detail people think  
> the big picture people are idiots because they are vague.  For the  
> extremes of either type, there is sudden glazing over of the eyes when
>  forced to converse with someone of the other brain type.  I have  
> watched it happen, I have experienced it myself.  My husband once  
> endured an excruciating conversation between a brother and BIL of  
> mine, 15 full minutes regarding a scratch on a car and what to do  
> about it.  Our attitude is, the car is transportation, a scratch means  
> nothing to that purpose.  To detail people, a scratch is a very real  
> thing.
>      For the purposes of this discussion, ask yourself which type you  
> are, and would you please report in which type you are and whether you  
> think organic gardening is stupid  and chemicals are fine.  Remember  
> there are people in the middle, more versatile people than the ones at  
> the ends of the spectrum.  If you are in the middle, what is your  
> opinion re chemicals, in 25 words or less?   Thank you.  Any input  
> regarding an article for Pomona on this subject would be very much  
> appreciated.  A group effort will produce a better balanced article.   
> Some details, some theory, something for everyone.    Donna
>
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