[NAFEX] chemical vs organic

mIEKAL aND qazingulaza at gmail.com
Mon Jun 15 12:38:18 EDT 2009


Richard:  A lot of the farmers in our coop use http://lancasterag.com/  They
do have rock phosphate as well as about a 100 pages of other ammendments..
I can't speak to the price.

~mIEKAL

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Richard Harrison
<rharrison922 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Stephen,
>      I can't find rock phosphate either. The local Co-op says they don't
> have it. Also, I have heard that it is VERY slowly available as well. They
> sell a lot of diamonium phosphate and superphosphate.
>                                                   Richard
>
> --- On *Mon, 6/15/09, Kevin Moore <aleguy33 at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Kevin Moore <aleguy33 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
> To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 9:47 AM
>
>
>  Rock Phosphate should do as well as bone meal. I can't speak to the cost.
> If you have healthy humusy soil, you shouldn't need to apply it more than
> every three to five years at the most.
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Richard Harrison <rharrison922 at yahoo.com>
> *To:* North American Fruit Explorers <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2009 4:34:36 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
>
>   Stephen,
>     Do you buy bone meal or use something else?
>                                                Richard Harrison, NW FL
>
> --- On *Fri, 6/12/09, Stephen Sadler <Docshiva at Docshiva.org>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Stephen Sadler <Docshiva at Docshiva.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
> To: "'North American Fruit Explorers'" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:30 PM
>
>  I agree about Donna’s letter!!
>
>
>
> Potatoes really do love that cottonseed meal.  I can get organic, but it’s
> very hard to find elsewhere.  Since you’re not certified, why not use it?
> I’m comfortable with it vs. conventional chemicals.  I’m not certified
> either, but I’ve heard it mentioned that I might be certifiable…
>
>
>
> ~ Stephen
>
>
>
> *From:* nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:
> nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] *On Behalf Of *Richard Harrison
> *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2009 10:38 AM
> *To:* North American Fruit Explorers
> *Subject:* Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
>
>
>
> Donna,
>
>      Thank you for this amazing article ! I thoroughly enjoyed it! I
> chuckled through most of it---mainly because it is SO true. You should be a
> journalist somewhere--telling it like it is!
>
>      I think the first chuckle was when you said that Sevin is considered
> one of the 4 major food groups. I rolled on that one! There's SO much truth
> to that. I live in NW FL and understand you--loud and clear.
>
>      As for the gulf between organic enthusiasts and chemical ones, there's
> an old saying that MAY have some application here--when you think about it
> long enough. The saying is "if you don't stand for something, you'll fall
> for anything". Many people can be VERY opinionated. I know, I'm one of them!
>
>
>      I have lived on the chemical side for most of my life--of 57 years.
> Last year I tried some cotttonseed meal on my sugarcane and decide to
> increase the rate to double. THIS YEAR it was affordable to buy versus
> chemical. Then I decided to try some cottonseed meal on my Irish
> potatoes--knowing that potatoes like a lot of Phosphorus, rather than
> Nitrogen(which the cottonseed meal is high in). Well we got some drenching
> rains!  The potatoes with chemical fertilizer has been dead and harvested
> for 2 1/2 weeks and it is just getting to be harvest time on the potatoes
> with cottonseed meal. The plants stayed green over 2 1/2 weeks longer!  The
> potatoes have better color(in the ground) too, than the chemically
> fertilized ones.
>
>      So now, I'm gung-ho to try more cottonseed meal. I tell an organic
> friend about mu results and advise her on where she can purchase cottonseed
> meal and guess what response I get?  "Cottonseed meal ISN'T ORGANIC!"    I
> thought to myself, "that's crazy!" But she explains, "the cottonseed is
> probably BIOENGINEERED--( a no-no) and the cotton was probably sprayed with
> Roundup and pesticides!  The meal is CONTAMINATED.
>
>      Probably needless to say, I will NEVER be an organic gardener. It's
> next to impossible to be an organic gardener---or certified organic these
> days, certainly not on a commercial scale. I had thought that I might try
> growing organic vegetables this Fall and sell them at the Farmers Market,
> but no, I can't even call them organic without breaking a law now. They have
> to meet arbitrary legal standards now. I have to call them "naturally-grown"
> or something.
>
>       So, I'm no longer hyped up about organic gardening---again. IPM
> sounds logical to me. We have a county agent that this is a part of his job
> title "IPM Specialist".
>
>       But I guess we have "different strokes for different folks" as Sly
> said in his song.
>
>       Personally, I look at food like the scripture says, " every
> creature(referring to meat here---or food) of God is good, and nothing to be
> refused, if it be received with thanksgiving. For it is sanctified by the
> word of God and prayer."  I try to pray over everything that I eat. I don't
> know(for sure) what's in the food that I eat(and literally noone does). But
> I know faith always works.
>
>       Some folks have faith in organic, some in chemical. Let's not fight
> over which is right or wrong.
>
>        Donna, keep up the good writings. You brightened my day!
>
> Richard Harrison, NW FL
>
> --- On *Fri, 6/12/09, Kieran &/or Donna <holycow at frontiernet.net>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Kieran &/or Donna <holycow at frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
> To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 11:13 AM
>
> 
>
> Someone, I think it was Fluffy or maybe Alan who said organic people
> are "unscientific".   That's not entirely true.  Most of us are simply naive
> idealists who really believe that God or Nature is benign and nice.  We have
> read that if we just improve our soil enough, that the bugs and disease will
> go away.  That generally seems to hold true for truck crops.  I haven't seen
> a bean beetle in years.  Fruit trees seem much harder to deal with.  The
> borer for every species thing doesn't help.  The curculio seem to have
> developed the perfect system, simply ruin all the fruit for any other
> creature but let a few fruits hang on long enough to make a few seeds for
> the trees to reproduce. Codling moths aren't nearly as efficient.  Someone
> asked me at work about what was eating the leaves on various species
> of veggies in her first ever garden.  Two of us were interrogating her, as
> she was obviously describing rabbit or deer damage.  the same bug does not
> attack all those species, and each one does it's own very specific
> thing.  The older men in the family had simply gone out and dusted Sevin to
> deal with all those other pests.  Here our worlds divide.  I adore bugs,
> except for the ones I hate with a passion.  I could never spray my garden
> with an insecticide, it would kill too many of my miniature wildlife.  ( I
> don't have to go on safari to Africa or even use binoculars to
> observe amazing creatures and great drama.  Try watching one of those
> special spider wasps in action.  You know, the blackish ones with the orange
> curly antennae.  Know what they use those antennae for?  They feel the
> spider very carefully with them to find the right spot to sting.  It's
> rather obscene to watch, esp as I am so fond of wolf spiders. )  I know a
> great deal about all kinds of bugs, including those that have no economic
> impact on me.  Tennessee oldtimers don't know these things, they kill
> everything with Sevin.  That is scientific?   I get a big kick out of
> explaining to oldtimers about why the blister beetles they hate so much are
> only a mixed curse, because their young feed on grasshopper eggs.  Once we
> got banties running loose eating grasshoppers, the blister beetles became
> rare.
>
>     Sevin is one of the 4 food groups in Tennessee.  Never mind that it is
> a neurotoxin that mammals can break down in their livers because they have
> an enzyme that insects don't have.  Never mind that this enzyme can be used
> up by repeated exposure or that certain medications can use it up.  Never
> mind the reports in Organic Gardening, that magazine for superstitious
> organic gardeners about how Sevin can last 40 days in the garden in certain
> conditions.  Never mind the final conclusion in the book A PLAGUE OF
> FROGS that it was the breakdown product of a pesticide that interfered with
> the thyroid function in the developing frogs and caused the limb
> deformities.  The researchers working with the pesticide itself did not get
> these results, giving the impression that it would not affect frogs.  Yes,
> there is also some kind of amphibian infection running around that can do
> this, but the Canadian researcher said flatly that in his years of sampling,
> that only farm ponds with lots of pesticides produced deformities.  Is it
> truly scientific to assume that chemicals don't break down into intermediate
> products out in Nature?  Some of us organic nuts are now bitter and twisted,
> having realised that the world consists mostly of creatures saying
> gimme.  We watch longingly the simple lives of chemical users, but are still
> only too aware that the miracle of modern chemistry is biting America's
> backside in the rates of cancer and other health problems.
>
>     This is not intended as an attack on anyone on this group, I am merely
> addressing the great divide in Nafex.  Never mind politics, we don't go to
> Nafex meetings and then immediately try to figure out whether we are talking
> to a Dem or Rep, we want to know if we are talking with someone who grows
> resistant stuff or who grows the best of everything and sprays.  Both groups
> start out naive, but one trusts the chemical companies and sprays, the other
> puts their faith in Nature and doesn't spray.  Both get rewards, but often
> the organic bunch have to do a whole lot more learning first.  Personally, I
> would love to see the concept of IPM agriculture blossom.  I would love to
> be able to buy IPM produce in my local grocery.  But somehow the concept has
> never gotten major attention among consumers and publications to consumers.
> IPM is definitely the most scientific form of agriculture in my opinion.  It
> is based on the intersection of 3 realities, economic reality, and the
> knowlege of biology and chemistry.
>
>     I suppose this is the foundation for an article I have long wanted to
> write for Pomona but never could quite figure out how to approach.  The
> divide in Nafex between the organic and the chemical people is quite deep.
> People have their minds as made up already as they did in the last
> election.  I soon discovered last year that I could only discuss politics
> with like minded people, that there were no discussions between sides, only
> arguments.  I think the divide is addressed by the Meyers-Briggs,
> Kiersey-Bates personality tests.  The division is between the 25% of the
> population who see the forest, and the 75% who see the trees.  Between
> the big picture and the details.  The big picture people think the detail
> people are idiots because they can't grasp the implications of what they
> do.  The detail people think the big picture people are idiots because they
> are vague.  For the extremes of either type, there is sudden glazing over of
> the eyes when forced to converse with someone of the other brain type.  I
> have watched it happen, I have experienced it myself.  My husband once
> endured an excruciating conversation between a brother and BIL of mine, 15
> full minutes regarding a scratch on a car and what to do about it.  Our
> attitude is, the car is transportation, a scratch means nothing to that
> purpose.  To detail people, a scratch is a very real thing.
>
>      For the purposes of this discussion, ask yourself which type you are,
> and would you please report in which type you are and whether you think
> organic gardening is stupid  and chemicals are fine.  Remember there are
> people in the middle, more versatile people than the ones at the ends of the
> spectrum.  If you are in the middle, what is your opinion re chemicals, in
> 25 words or less?   Thank you.  Any input regarding an article for Pomona on
> this subject would be very much appreciated.  A group effort will produce a
> better balanced article.  Some details, some theory, something for
> everyone.    Donna
>
>
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