[NAFEX] chemical vs organic

Lon J. Rombough lonrom at hevanet.com
Mon Jun 15 12:36:31 EDT 2009


Possible source:
http://www.concentratesnw.com/

=Lon Rombough
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On Jun 15, 2009, at 9:32 AM, Richard Harrison wrote:

Stephen,
     I can't find rock phosphate either. The local Co-op says they 
don't have it. Also, I have heard that it is VERY slowly available as 
well. They sell a lot of diamonium phosphate and superphosphate.
                                                  Richard

--- On Mon, 6/15/09, Kevin Moore <aleguy33 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: Kevin Moore <aleguy33 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
> To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 9:47 AM
>
> Rock Phosphate should do as well as bone meal. I can't speak to the 
> cost. If you have healthy humusy soil, you shouldn't need to apply it 
> more than every three to five years at the most.
>
> From: Richard Harrison <rharrison922 at yahoo.com>
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:34:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
>
> Stephen,
>     Do you buy bone meal or use something else?
>                                                Richard Harrison, NW FL
>
> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Stephen Sadler <Docshiva at Docshiva.org> wrote:
>>
>> From: Stephen Sadler <Docshiva at Docshiva.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
>> To: "'North American Fruit Explorers'" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:30 PM
>>
>>
>> I agree about Donna’s letter!!
>>
>>  
>>
>> Potatoes really do love that cottonseed meal.  I can get organic, but 
>> it’s very hard to find elsewhere.  Since you’re not certified, why 
>> not use it?  I’m comfortable with it vs. conventional chemicals.  I’m 
>> not certified either, but I’ve heard it mentioned that I might be 
>> certifiable…
>>
>>  
>>
>> ~ Stephen 
>>
>>  
>>
>> From: nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org 
>> [mailto:nafex-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Richard 
>> Harrison
>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 10:38 AM
>> To: North American Fruit Explorers
>> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
>>
>>  
>>
>> Donna,
>>
>>      Thank you for this amazing article ! I thoroughly enjoyed it! I 
>> chuckled through most of it---mainly because it is SO true. You 
>> should be a journalist somewhere--telling it like it is!
>>
>>      I think the first chuckle was when you said that Sevin is 
>> considered one of the 4 major food groups. I rolled on that one! 
>> There's SO much truth to that. I live in NW FL and understand 
>> you--loud and clear.
>>
>>      As for the gulf between organic enthusiasts and chemical ones, 
>> there's an old saying that MAY have some application here--when you 
>> think about it long enough. The saying is "if you don't stand for 
>> something, you'll fall for anything". Many people can be VERY 
>> opinionated. I know, I'm one of them!
>>
>>      I have lived on the chemical side for most of my life--of 57 
>> years. Last year I tried some cotttonseed meal on my sugarcane and 
>> decide to increase the rate to double. THIS YEAR it was affordable to 
>> buy versus chemical. Then I decided to try some cottonseed meal on my 
>> Irish potatoes--knowing that potatoes like a lot of Phosphorus, 
>> rather than Nitrogen(which the cottonseed meal is high in). Well we 
>> got some drenching rains!  The potatoes with chemical fertilizer has 
>> been dead and harvested for 2 1/2 weeks and it is just getting to be 
>> harvest time on the potatoes with cottonseed meal. The plants stayed 
>> green over 2 1/2 weeks longer!  The potatoes have better color(in the 
>> ground) too, than the chemically fertilized ones.
>>
>>      So now, I'm gung-ho to try more cottonseed meal. I tell an 
>> organic friend about mu results and advise her on where she can 
>> purchase cottonseed meal and guess what response I get?  "Cottonseed 
>> meal ISN'T ORGANIC!"    I thought to myself, "that's crazy!" But she 
>> explains, "the cottonseed is probably BIOENGINEERED--( a no-no) and 
>> the cotton was probably sprayed with Roundup and pesticides!  The 
>> meal is CONTAMINATED.
>>
>>      Probably needless to say, I will NEVER be an organic gardener. 
>> It's next to impossible to be an organic gardener---or certified 
>> organic these days, certainly not on a commercial scale. I had 
>> thought that I might try growing organic vegetables this Fall and 
>> sell them at the Farmers Market, but no, I can't even call them 
>> organic without breaking a law now. They have to meet arbitrary legal 
>> standards now. I have to call them "naturally-grown" or something.
>>
>>       So, I'm no longer hyped up about organic gardening---again. IPM 
>> sounds logical to me. We have a county agent that this is a part of 
>> his job title "IPM Specialist".
>>
>>       But I guess we have "different strokes for different folks" as 
>> Sly said in his song.
>>
>>       Personally, I look at food like the scripture says, " every 
>> creature(referring to meat here---or food) of God is good, and 
>> nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving. For it is 
>> sanctified by the word of God and prayer."  I try to pray over 
>> everything that I eat. I don't know(for sure) what's in the food that 
>> I eat(and literally noone does). But I know faith always works.
>>
>>       Some folks have faith in organic, some in chemical. Let's not 
>> fight over which is right or wrong.
>>
>>        Donna, keep up the good writings. You brightened my day!
>>
>> Richard Harrison, NW FL
>>
>> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Kieran &/or Donna <holycow at frontiernet.net> 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Kieran &/or Donna <holycow at frontiernet.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] chemical vs organic
>>> To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 11:13 AM
>>>
>>> Someone, I think it was Fluffy or maybe Alan who said organic people 
>>> are "unscientific".   That's not entirely true.  Most of us are 
>>> simply naive idealists who really believe that God or Nature is 
>>> benign and nice.  We have read that if we just improve our soil 
>>> enough, that the bugs and disease will go away.  That generally 
>>> seems to hold true for truck crops.  I haven't seen a bean beetle in 
>>> years.  Fruit trees seem much harder to deal with.  The borer for 
>>> every species thing doesn't help.  The curculio seem to have 
>>> developed the perfect system, simply ruin all the fruit for any 
>>> other creature but let a few fruits hang on long enough to make a 
>>> few seeds for the trees to reproduce. Codling moths aren't nearly as 
>>> efficient.  Someone asked me at work about what  was eating the 
>>> leaves on various species of veggies in her first ever garden.  Two 
>>> of us were interrogating her, as she was obviously describing rabbit 
>>> or deer damage.  the same bug does not attack all those species, and 
>>> each one does it's own very specific thing.  The older men in the 
>>> family had simply gone out and dusted Sevin to deal with all those 
>>> other pests.  Here our worlds divide.  I adore bugs, except for the 
>>> ones I hate with a passion.  I could never spray my garden with an 
>>> insecticide, it would kill too many of my miniature wildlife.  ( I 
>>> don't have to go on safari to Africa or even use binoculars to 
>>> observe amazing creatures and great drama.  Try watching one of 
>>> those special spider wasps in action.  You know, the blackish ones 
>>> with the orange curly antennae.  Know what they use those antennae 
>>> for?  They feel the spider very carefully with them to find  the 
>>> right spot to sting.  It's rather obscene to watch, esp as I am so 
>>> fond of wolf spiders. )  I know a great deal about all kinds of 
>>> bugs, including those that have no economic impact on me.  Tennessee 
>>> oldtimers don't know these things, they kill everything with Sevin.  
>>> That is scientific?   I get a big kick out of explaining to 
>>> oldtimers about why the blister beetles they hate so much are only a 
>>> mixed curse, because their young feed on grasshopper eggs.  Once we 
>>> got banties running loose eating grasshoppers, the blister beetles 
>>> became rare. 
>>>
>>>     Sevin is one of the 4 food groups in Tennessee.  Never mind that 
>>> it is a neurotoxin that mammals can break down in their livers 
>>> because they have an enzyme that insects don't have.  Never mind 
>>> that this enzyme can be used up by repeated exposure or that certain 
>>> medications can use it up.  Never mind the reports in Organic 
>>> Gardening, that magazine for superstitious organic gardeners about 
>>> how Sevin can last 40 days in the garden in certain conditions.  
>>> Never mind the final conclusion in the book A PLAGUE OF FROGS that 
>>> it was the breakdown product of a pesticide that interfered with the 
>>> thyroid function in the developing frogs and caused the limb 
>>> deformities.  The researchers working with the pesticide itself did 
>>> not get these results, giving the impression that it would not 
>>> affect frogs.  Yes, there is also some kind  of amphibian infection 
>>> running around that can do this, but the Canadian researcher said 
>>> flatly that in his years of sampling, that only farm ponds with lots 
>>> of pesticides produced deformities.  Is it truly scientific to 
>>> assume that chemicals don't break down into intermediate products 
>>> out in Nature?  Some of us organic nuts are now bitter and twisted, 
>>> having realised that the world consists mostly of creatures saying 
>>> gimme.  We watch longingly the simple lives of chemical users, but 
>>> are still only too aware that the miracle of modern chemistry is 
>>> biting America's backside in the rates of cancer and other health 
>>> problems. 
>>>
>>>     This is not intended as an attack on anyone on this group, I am 
>>> merely addressing the great divide in Nafex.  Never mind politics, 
>>> we don't go to Nafex meetings and then immediately try to figure out 
>>> whether we are talking to a Dem or Rep, we want to know if we are 
>>> talking with someone who grows resistant stuff or who grows the best 
>>> of everything and sprays.  Both groups start out naive, but one 
>>> trusts the chemical companies and sprays, the other puts their faith 
>>> in Nature and doesn't spray.  Both get rewards, but often the 
>>> organic bunch have to do a whole lot more learning first.  
>>> Personally, I would love to see the concept of IPM agriculture 
>>> blossom.  I would love to be able to buy IPM produce in my local 
>>> grocery.  But somehow the concept has never gotten major attention 
>>> among consumers and publications to  consumers.  IPM is definitely 
>>> the most scientific form of agriculture in my opinion.  It is based 
>>> on the intersection of 3 realities, economic reality, and the 
>>> knowlege of biology and chemistry. 
>>>
>>>     I suppose this is the foundation for an article I have long 
>>> wanted to write for Pomona but never could quite figure out how to 
>>> approach.  The divide in Nafex between the organic and the chemical 
>>> people is quite deep.  People have their minds as made up already as 
>>> they did in the last election.  I soon discovered last year that I 
>>> could only discuss politics with like minded people, that there were 
>>> no discussions between sides, only arguments.  I think the divide is 
>>> addressed by the Meyers-Briggs, Kiersey-Bates personality tests.  
>>> The division is between the 25% of the population who see the 
>>> forest, and the 75% who see the trees.  Between the big picture and 
>>> the details.  The big picture people think the detail people are 
>>> idiots because they can't grasp the implications of what they do.  
>>> The detail people  think the big picture people are idiots because 
>>> they are vague.  For the extremes of either type, there is sudden 
>>> glazing over of the eyes when forced to converse with someone of the 
>>> other brain type.  I have watched it happen, I have experienced it 
>>> myself.  My husband once endured an excruciating conversation 
>>> between a brother and BIL of mine, 15 full minutes regarding a 
>>> scratch on a car and what to do about it.  Our attitude is, the car 
>>> is transportation, a scratch means nothing to that purpose.  To 
>>> detail people, a scratch is a very real thing. 
>>>
>>>      For the purposes of this discussion, ask yourself which type 
>>> you are, and would you please report in which type you are and 
>>> whether you think organic gardening is stupid  and chemicals are 
>>> fine.  Remember there are people in the middle, more versatile 
>>> people than the ones at the ends of the spectrum.  If you are in the 
>>> middle, what is your opinion re chemicals, in 25 words or less?   
>>> Thank you.  Any input regarding an article for Pomona on this 
>>> subject would be very much appreciated.  A group effort will produce 
>>> a better balanced article.  Some details, some theory, something for 
>>> everyone.    Donna
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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