Stephen Sadler And All Re: [NAFEX] Re:Lime/Amphibian decline

David W Hausmann wizard2468 at
Mon Apr 18 10:38:28 EDT 2005

Dear Stephen Sadler and All,
        How's it going?  Your comment "The more worrisome contaminants
are 'organic' - bacteria and
fungi." in the message below reminded me of a discussion I had on another
e-group newsletter.  The first one I joined, in fact, was an organic
e-newsletter from the seed company web site for Seeds of Change [SOC].  I
first asked if using Miracle Grow made plants non-organic, and if so why,
as I assumed Miracle Grow in particular and such products in general were
just salts that could be mined and therefore occurred naturally.  The
reason I was thinking such products would be better to use is precisely
because of your observations about biological contaminants.  I felt it
would be better to have chemically equivalent material and therefore the
proper nutrients, similar to adding lime, rather than using compost with
all of the biological contaminants possible due to animal "contributions"
of one form or another.  With [an extreme, I know, but...] mad cow
disease, bird flu, etc., etc., I felt give me good old chemically pure
and relatively or completely biologically inactive fertilizer any time. 
I do believe in exposure to local contaminants and diseases to allow our
immune systems to get the "exercise" they need to protect us [I always
think of the "boy in the bubble" concept of cities and even communities. 
{Movie and TV series "Sanctuary"}], but some things are getting rather
extreme.  For example, as I understand it, West Nile virus is primarily
dangerous to younger and older people and others with weakened immune
systems.  I profess that if you are medium aged and either healthy or
robust, you may want to seek out West Nile as I understand once exposed,
you develop a lifetime immunity to the disease, similar to a vaccine and
like when parents used to find other children with measles and such and
expose their own children so that they could not catch the disease as an
adult, when it is much more serious.  So, being reasonably healthy, I at
times purposely go out at dusk when the moquitoes are feeding.
        Unfortunately, definitions of "organic" are pretty much just the
opposite.  I was informed that not only were any plants that had ever had
Miracle Grow used on them [I used it when I started seeds when I first
began gardening about 10 years ago] but also that when the plants matured
and produced seeds, those seeds and the plants grown from those seeds
could not be called "organic", rather extreme to me, but what do I know? 
hahaha  I realize that the salts used in Miracle Grow and such accumulate
and must be dealt with, and the nutrients may not be as quickly or as
easily used by the plants, but with the increasing likelihood of
biological contaminations, would this still be a better trade off? 
[Everything is a trade off, of course.]  Any thoughts or opinions would
be appreciated.  Thank you for your time, patience and understanding as
well as your advice for months now.  Have a Good One!  Love, Peace and

Saint Louis, Missouri

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:34:21 -0700 "Stephen Sadler"
<Docshiva at> writes:
> Doc,"
> I don't know of any association between those residues and coronary 
> artery
> disease.  Dietary trans-fats seem to be the culprit, either 
> directly
> ingested or as an indirect cause by changing the chemistry of the 
> fats in
> food animals fed trans-fats.  Any studies to back your suspicions, 
> or is it
> the lack of studies that piques your interest?
> There is an association between irritable bowel and dish 
> soap/detergent
> residues.  Sometimes a case can be cured by having the patient use 
> less soap
> and rinse the dishes better.
> There's been a discussion on another list I subscribe to about 
> washing
> fruits and veggies, and using some of the soaps intended for that 
> purpose.
> I've had a tough go getting across to some people that any soap, 
> even nicely
> marketed biodegradable ones, will cause more problem than the 
> average
> pesticide/herbicide residue on produce.  The latter is minimal, the 
> soaps
> don't remove any (the residue is not on the surface), and can cause 
> bowel
> irritation.  The more worrisome contaminants are 'organic' - 
> bacteria and
> fungi.
> Stephen Sadler, Ph.D.
> USDA 9, AHS heat zone 8, 
> Sacramento CA - Mediterranean climate
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nafex-bounces at
> [mailto:nafex-bounces at] On Behalf Of Doc Lisenby
> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 8:37 AM
> To: nafex at
> Subject: [NAFEX] Re:Lime/Amphibian decline
> It is common practice to check fish ponds here in the South to 
> insure that 
> the pH isn't too low.  I add tons of lime to my 3 acre pond every 
> few years.
> It takes a lot of lime to show any appreciable rise in pH and some 
> people 
> says it is an exercise in futility.
> I hear only one or two bullfrogs (Rana catesbelana)every year.  
> Fifty years 
> ago we could harvest enough for a meal.   Nowadays, frog gigs, a 
> commonly 
> sold hardware/sporting good store item, are hard to find.
> I have always suspected  that surfactants/detergents/wetting 
> agents/surface 
> tension depressants/emulsifiers inadvertently left on eating 
> implements, 
> dishes and cookware are involved somehow in causing coronary artery 
> disease 
> in humans.  They are powerful reagents and just don't belong in a 
> living 
> organism; except for those that the organism's body makes for a 
> specific 
> purpose.
> Doc Lisenby 
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