[Cc-uk] RE: Cc-uk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 13

Damian.Rafferty at Culture.gsi.gov.uk Damian.Rafferty at Culture.gsi.gov.uk
Tue Apr 26 12:29:13 EDT 2005


I have just spoken to someone in Admissions at PRS who said that they have
never refused to collect on behalf of someone because of this nor would they
envisage doing so. Nevertheless, it is a worrying ambiguity.

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Sent: 26 April 2005 17:01
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Subject: Cc-uk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 13


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Changing your mind and the young Bowie (Dr Tim Brookes)
   2. Re: Re: Changing your mind and the young Bowie (Neil Leyton)
   3. Re: Re: Changing your mind and the young Bowie (David M.Berry)
   4. Re: Re: Changing your mind and the young Bowie (Neil Leyton)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:55:08 +0100
From: Dr Tim Brookes <T.Brookes at surrey.ac.uk>
Subject: [Cc-uk] Re: Changing your mind and the young Bowie
To: cc-uk at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <a7197f8ea6955d64ec5bf77ab6c86df2 at surrey.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On 25 Apr 2005, at 17:00, cc-uk-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> One of the thorny 'yes buts...' I am hearing a lot in regard to CC is 
> "what happens if young creators license their early work under CC and 
> then rue the day forever more?"

For musical works, as far as I can see, the major problem here is the 
UK collection agencies. If you have ever licensed any of your works 
under CC then you can never join PRS, since they require exclusive 
rights to all your works - past and future - and you can not grant 
exclusive rights on a work you've already CC-licensed.  If you're not 
in PRS when you're writing hit after hit, you'll find it almost 
impossible to get any performance royalties from your multitudinous 
radio broadcasts, TV broadcasts, film showings, public performances, 
iTunes downloads, etc...  You can make money from selling CDs, and from 
granting permission for use of your tracks in films, adverts, etc, but 
you won't get performance royalties.

It's PRS that need to change - not CC - but until they do I think you'd 
have to be very sure that you never want any performance royalties 
before you CC-license anything.  This is a tremendous shame and I very 
much hope PRS (and MCPS and PPL) can be persuaded to grant membership 
in exchange for exclusive (or even non-exclusive) rights on commercial 
use only. Then a non-com CC licence would not preclude later royalty 
income.

Tim.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:01:53 -0400
From: Neil Leyton <nleyton at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] Re: Changing your mind and the young Bowie
To: Dr Tim Brookes <T.Brookes at surrey.ac.uk>
Cc: cc-uk at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <24cd59d2050425130112f0d4d4 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

It is important to note, on this PRS topic, that MANY artists and
labels of rising influence are becoming aware of the issue and, should
PRS not change, it may find itself becoming increasingly irrelevant,
as new indie-minded and CC-aware rights societies begin to emerge,
first centered around internet licensing, and then moving into the FW
radio domain which the existing PRO's have ruled with a mafia-like
grip for way too long already.

Btw, this issue has NOT been a problem in Canada, as SOCAN rightfully
differentiates between commercial vs. non-commercial uses, and no red
flags have gone up around CC usage... pointing the way for possible
PRS/PPL positive adaptation here...

N.

On 4/25/05, Dr Tim Brookes <T.Brookes at surrey.ac.uk> wrote:
> On 25 Apr 2005, at 17:00, cc-uk-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> > One of the thorny 'yes buts...' I am hearing a lot in regard to CC is
> > "what happens if young creators license their early work under CC and
> > then rue the day forever more?"
> 
> For musical works, as far as I can see, the major problem here is the
> UK collection agencies. If you have ever licensed any of your works
> under CC then you can never join PRS, since they require exclusive
> rights to all your works - past and future - and you can not grant
> exclusive rights on a work you've already CC-licensed.  If you're not
> in PRS when you're writing hit after hit, you'll find it almost
> impossible to get any performance royalties from your multitudinous
> radio broadcasts, TV broadcasts, film showings, public performances,
> iTunes downloads, etc...  You can make money from selling CDs, and from
> granting permission for use of your tracks in films, adverts, etc, but
> you won't get performance royalties.
> 
> It's PRS that need to change - not CC - but until they do I think you'd
> have to be very sure that you never want any performance royalties
> before you CC-license anything.  This is a tremendous shame and I very
> much hope PRS (and MCPS and PPL) can be persuaded to grant membership
> in exchange for exclusive (or even non-exclusive) rights on commercial
> use only. Then a non-com CC licence would not preclude later royalty
> income.
> 
> Tim.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cc-uk mailing list
> Cc-uk at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
> 


-- 
www.fadingways.co.uk
www.fadingwaysmusic.com
www.soulrevolutionaries.org/leyton


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 23:29:07 +0100
From: David M.Berry <d.berry at sussex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] Re: Changing your mind and the young Bowie
To: Neil Leyton <nleyton at gmail.com>
Cc: cc-uk at lists.ibiblio.org, Dr Tim Brookes <T.Brookes at surrey.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <7e321e394edef2cecfc4e4b7b10fa289 at sussex.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed


Yes, but have you hear Fran Nevrlka, the head of the PPL talk about the 
Creative Commons? Anarchists, academics and nihilists?



On 25 Apr 2005, at 21:01, Neil Leyton wrote:

> It is important to note, on this PRS topic, that MANY artists and
> labels of rising influence are becoming aware of the issue and, should
> PRS not change, it may find itself becoming increasingly irrelevant,
> as new indie-minded and CC-aware rights societies begin to emerge,
> first centered around internet licensing, and then moving into the FW
> radio domain which the existing PRO's have ruled with a mafia-like
> grip for way too long already.
>
> Btw, this issue has NOT been a problem in Canada, as SOCAN rightfully
> differentiates between commercial vs. non-commercial uses, and no red
> flags have gone up around CC usage... pointing the way for possible
> PRS/PPL positive adaptation here...
>
> N.
>
> On 4/25/05, Dr Tim Brookes <T.Brookes at surrey.ac.uk> wrote:
>> On 25 Apr 2005, at 17:00, cc-uk-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
>>> One of the thorny 'yes buts...' I am hearing a lot in regard to CC is
>>> "what happens if young creators license their early work under CC and
>>> then rue the day forever more?"
>>
>> For musical works, as far as I can see, the major problem here is the
>> UK collection agencies. If you have ever licensed any of your works
>> under CC then you can never join PRS, since they require exclusive
>> rights to all your works - past and future - and you can not grant
>> exclusive rights on a work you've already CC-licensed.  If you're not
>> in PRS when you're writing hit after hit, you'll find it almost
>> impossible to get any performance royalties from your multitudinous
>> radio broadcasts, TV broadcasts, film showings, public performances,
>> iTunes downloads, etc...  You can make money from selling CDs, and 
>> from
>> granting permission for use of your tracks in films, adverts, etc, but
>> you won't get performance royalties.
>>
>> It's PRS that need to change - not CC - but until they do I think 
>> you'd
>> have to be very sure that you never want any performance royalties
>> before you CC-license anything.  This is a tremendous shame and I very
>> much hope PRS (and MCPS and PPL) can be persuaded to grant membership
>> in exchange for exclusive (or even non-exclusive) rights on commercial
>> use only. Then a non-com CC licence would not preclude later royalty
>> income.
>>
>> Tim.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cc-uk mailing list
>> Cc-uk at lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
>>
>
>
> -- 
> www.fadingways.co.uk
> www.fadingwaysmusic.com
> www.soulrevolutionaries.org/leyton
> _______________________________________________
> Cc-uk mailing list
> Cc-uk at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:09:57 +0100
From: Neil Leyton <nleyton at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] Re: Changing your mind and the young Bowie
To: "David M. Berry" <d.berry at sussex.ac.uk>
Cc: cc-uk at lists.ibiblio.org, Dr Tim Brookes <T.Brookes at surrey.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <24cd59d205042602091b235341 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I haven't, but I'm sure I will - I'm on a panel with a PPL rep
tomorrow in London (Music Indie's Think Tank).

N.

On 4/25/05, David M. Berry <d.berry at sussex.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
> Yes, but have you hear Fran Nevrlka, the head of the PPL talk about the
> Creative Commons? Anarchists, academics and nihilists?
> 
> 
> On 25 Apr 2005, at 21:01, Neil Leyton wrote:
> 
> > It is important to note, on this PRS topic, that MANY artists and
> > labels of rising influence are becoming aware of the issue and, should
> > PRS not change, it may find itself becoming increasingly irrelevant,
> > as new indie-minded and CC-aware rights societies begin to emerge,
> > first centered around internet licensing, and then moving into the FW
> > radio domain which the existing PRO's have ruled with a mafia-like
> > grip for way too long already.
> >
> > Btw, this issue has NOT been a problem in Canada, as SOCAN rightfully
> > differentiates between commercial vs. non-commercial uses, and no red
> > flags have gone up around CC usage... pointing the way for possible
> > PRS/PPL positive adaptation here...
> >
> > N.
> >
> > On 4/25/05, Dr Tim Brookes <T.Brookes at surrey.ac.uk> wrote:
> >> On 25 Apr 2005, at 17:00, cc-uk-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> >>> One of the thorny 'yes buts...' I am hearing a lot in regard to CC is
> >>> "what happens if young creators license their early work under CC and
> >>> then rue the day forever more?"
> >>
> >> For musical works, as far as I can see, the major problem here is the
> >> UK collection agencies. If you have ever licensed any of your works
> >> under CC then you can never join PRS, since they require exclusive
> >> rights to all your works - past and future - and you can not grant
> >> exclusive rights on a work you've already CC-licensed.  If you're not
> >> in PRS when you're writing hit after hit, you'll find it almost
> >> impossible to get any performance royalties from your multitudinous
> >> radio broadcasts, TV broadcasts, film showings, public performances,
> >> iTunes downloads, etc...  You can make money from selling CDs, and
> >> from
> >> granting permission for use of your tracks in films, adverts, etc, but
> >> you won't get performance royalties.
> >>
> >> It's PRS that need to change - not CC - but until they do I think
> >> you'd
> >> have to be very sure that you never want any performance royalties
> >> before you CC-license anything.  This is a tremendous shame and I very
> >> much hope PRS (and MCPS and PPL) can be persuaded to grant membership
> >> in exchange for exclusive (or even non-exclusive) rights on commercial
> >> use only. Then a non-com CC licence would not preclude later royalty
> >> income.
> >>
> >> Tim.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Cc-uk mailing list
> >> Cc-uk at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > www.fadingways.co.uk
> > www.fadingwaysmusic.com
> > www.soulrevolutionaries.org/leyton
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cc-uk mailing list
> > Cc-uk at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
> 
> 


-- 
www.fadingways.co.uk
www.fadingwaysmusic.com
www.soulrevolutionaries.org/leyton


------------------------------

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