SV: [Cc-uk] A number of updating drafting points

Jonathan Mitchell website3 at jonathanmitchell.info
Wed Apr 6 10:33:50 EDT 2005


Thank you for that Prodromos- a quick reply on 'look-and-feel'.

My understanding, I may be corrected, is that the statutory requirement for
'plain language' (which I know is constantly broken by legally-advised
businesses in UK) really requires a different look-and-feel from the generic
licences, and I have heard nothing but applause for the insistence, which
came first from you, on this approach (although with recognition that it is
always more difficult to write an intelligible agreement than an
unintelligible one!). I await comment from Berlin.

A particular problem is moral rights. Jurisdictions which don't have them:
no problem. Jurisdictions which have them and they can't be waived: no
problem either. But the UK jurisdictions have no option but to face up to
the problem. I am concerned at international differences. Israel and Canada
are in the same boat as us. Israel is explicitly reserving . Canada is
explicitly waiving . My personal view, and I don't speak for the project on
this, is that I am persuaded by the arguments for reservation, see
attachment to Prodromos' message of 6/12/04. If that is followed, I think it
has the knock-on effect that it does require a few fresh definitions.

Jonathan
--
Jonathan Mitchell QC

Work telephone/mobile: 0773 963 9343
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Please note that my clerk is Iain Murray; tel. 0131 260 5697; fax 0131 220
2654; e-mail murraystable at advocates.org.uk . Instructions as counsel should
unless otherwise notified be channelled via him.
> From: Prodromos Tsiavos <prodromos.tsiavos at socio-legal-studies.oxford.ac.uk>
> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:01:15 +0100 (BST)
> To: cc-uk at lists.ibiblio.org
> Cc: website3 at jonathanmitchell.info
> Subject: SV: [Cc-uk] A number of updating drafting points
> 
> 
> A few comments on various points raised the last couple of weeks:
> 
> A. Congradulations to the CC-SC for the launch event! I would also like to
> thank the CC-Scotland group and Jonathan in particular for all the
> contributions they have made (and are still making) to the drafting of the CC-
> EW licences.  We have incoroporated all the suggestions made after consulting
> with the Berlin/ Stanford people regarding the compatibility issues with the
> other national iCC licences. We are also explicitly reserving moral rights
> following the same model as the CC- Scotland licences but we were reluctant to
> include new definitions as that would make the CC-EW licences have a differnt
> look and feel from the generic CC licences. The Berlin people were very keen
> into having the licences look as close to each other as possible. Jonathan,
> did 
> you have any input from Berlin/ California regarding the extra definitions
> (e.g. Person, Use or Publish) in CC-SC?
> 
> B. Regarding the status of the CC-EW licences: we are done with the proof
> reading and now the final changes as discussed are included for the licences
> to 
> be made available on the CC web site.
> 
> C. In the process of porting the licences we identifed a number of issues that
> need to be addressed in a more international level. For instance, I still
> believe that there is an issue with the way moral rights are handled in
> different licences and the concept of ShareAlike and NonCommercial need to be
> clarified. The definition of the NonCommercial in particular is possibly the
> most sensitive element in the licences and it has been an issue of extensive
> debate with the BBC as well.
> 
> D. Regarding the BBC licence: I have not seen any recent draft either.
> Hoewever, the main differences between CC-EW  and the BBC Creative Archive
> licence draft that we have lastly seen were three:
> 1. BBC-CA is a UK rather than worldwide licence
> 2. The BBC-CA NonCommercial definition is narrower than that of the CC
> licences 
> (e.g. it does not allow political use of the BBC CA licensed work or any
> indirect commercial benefit)
> 3. It contains an extra Licence Element, i.e. NonEndorsement stipulating that
> the BBC does not endorse any of the modified material as its own.
> These different characteristics and particularly the first two make
> interoperability between classic CC licences and the BBC-CA licences very
> problematic as it has been already discussed in this list. This is why we
> removed the wording in clause 2.3 that allowed derivative works to be licensed
> under a BBC licence ("2.3. Each time You Publish a Derivative Work, You must
> offer to the recipient a licence to the Derivative Work which must be either
> one with the same terms and conditions as this Licence, or a later version of
> this Licence with the Licence Elements of this Licence, or another Creative
> Commons licence with the Licence Elements of this Licence, or the BBC Creative
> Archive general public licence."). This could cause serious compromises in the
> character of the licences and would essentially dilute the nature of the CC
> licences, as lots of people in the list have indicated in the past. Dual
> licensing seem to me the best option for the time being and hopefully BBC in
> the future will opt for a pure CC licence. Jonathan, how are you thinking of
> handling this issue in CC-SC?
> 
> E. It would be really great if a CC-NI was to be created. Does anyone in the
> list have any ideas about who would be an appropriate person in N. Ireland to
> contact? I was thinking of Professor Philip Leith but have not contacted him
> as 
> yet. Once all the CC-UK licences are completed we should perhaps have some
> kind 
> of event where we all get to meet each other in person ;-) Any ideas?
> 
> best
> Prodromos
> 
> 
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> Fra: Jonathan Mitchell [mailto:website3 at jonathanmitchell.info]
> Sendt: ty 05.04.2005 00:03
> Til: Creative Commons UK
> Kopi: 
> Emne: [Cc-uk] A number of updating drafting points
> 
> 
> In answer first to David Illsley's points:
> 1. There is now a slightly-revised draft at
> http://www.jonathanmitchell.info/cc/cc_sco_licence.html . This contains an
> explicit statement that the moral rights are reserved; see comment.
> (Incidentally, I'm sorry this is only on a private site, but there are
> technical difficulties in updating the draft on the CC page at
> http://creativecommons.org/worldwide/scotland .)
> 2. I take the point about the BBC licence (which would allow the BBC to
> create a derivative work and put this out under its own licence), and on
> looking at this I see that it doesn't seem to be quite clear what the BBC
> licence actually is. Drafts on this mailing list were never finalised, and
> there is no mention of the licence that I can find over the last year on the
> BBC site. Does anybody know who in the BBC is dealing with this, and what
> they are doing? I see one draft was authored by 'MatysR31' and 'Shelley
> Bradley' is mentioned, but I have no contact info.
> 
> More generally, I see that the EW draft licences at
> http://users.ox.ac.uk/~inet0009/creative_commons/ have been extensively
> revised: are they in final form or still under revision?
> 
> Jonathan
> --
> Jonathan Mitchell QC
> 
> Work telephone/mobile: 0773 963 9343
> Faculty internal mobile extension: 3349
> Fax to laptop: 0870 124 8222
> Business address: Advocates Library, Parliament House, Edinburgh EH1 1RF,
> Scotland
> DX ED 549302, Edinburgh 36; Legal Post LP3, Edinburgh 10
> 
> Website: http://www.jonathanmitchell.info
> 
> Home address: 30 Warriston Crescent, Edinburgh EH3 5LB, Scotland.
> Home telephone: 0131 557 0854.
> 
> This message, and any attachments, may contain legally privileged material
> and are confidential to the intended recipient.
> 
> Please note that my clerk is Iain Murray; tel. 0131 260 5697; fax 0131 220
> 2654; e-mail murraystable at advocates.org.uk . Instructions as counsel should
> unless otherwise notified be channelled via him.
> 
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