[cc-sampling] RE: your Negativland music career avoidance counselor

Z-Train Music ztrainmusic at hotmail.com
Sun Apr 25 03:55:51 EDT 2004


A helpful dose of reality.

You've been at this for a while, so you know what to expect from the 
self-release process. I've just finished a second album and still suffer 
illusions of grandeur when i think about ways to influence a good outcome. 
Having an audience is part of my notion of success, so I want to expose as 
many people as possible to the music.

As for making money off the art, I'm not planning to quit my day job.


Andy


>From: MARK / negativland <markhosler at bellsouth.net>
>To: "Z-Train Music" <ztrainmusic at hotmail.com>, 
>cc-sampling at lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: your Negativland music career  avoidance counselor
>Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:52:53 -0700
>
>
>
>this may be going far afield from the purpose of this list. Someone let me 
>know if so...
>
>
>At 4:56 PM -0700 4/23/04, Z-Train Music wrote:
>>A lot of DIY music guides stress the importance of live performances to 
>>promote the CD. What's your take -- is it a necessity?
>
>
>Possibly, but I'm ain't no music career guidance counselor! Sorry, cant 
>help you! :)  Our group "made it" because we got sued, not because we had a 
>"hit" or toured  very much.  And we're still perpetually almost broke.
>
>
>
>>
>>Are there performance options for solo musicians that can't really perform 
>>their sample-laden music in the traditional live concert setting?
>
>
>My advice- stop reading those DIY music guides and examine where your 
>notions of success come from (they often aren't yours, but are mostly 
>constructed by mainstream media, society, culture and "DIY music guides"), 
>pull these notions apart as best you can, and develop a more personal and 
>realistic idea of what "success" really is for you as an artist.
>
>From age 17, I always assumed Negativland would never be a way to make a 
>living, so my modest goal was to have a job I felt good about, but only 
>worked 2/3rds time, so that I still had enough time and energy left over to 
>make art. I was able to do this. I did this for 10 years, working on and 
>off as a nursery school teacher, before Negativland  had it's "hit" lawsuit 
>and I started to make enough to kinda sorta lived off of it. Kinda sorta. 
>Other folks with a more "Rolling Stone/MTV/Entertainment Weekly" idea of 
>success would have quit long before.
>
>Jenny Twoomey of www.futureofmusic.org has told me that of the number of 
>folks who  consider themselves to be musicians, only 2 percent actually 
>live off it (so the RIAA is suing all those file sharers to protect only 2% 
>of those who make music! Silly). So I am in the same  2% as Britney Spears. 
>But even now, 25 years after we began,  I don't expect it to last. In the 
>last few years, right when we seem more well known than ever and we still 
>have loads of ideas for new projects, our sales have dropped off to 
>nothing. I only make money right now from doing talks about our work! And 
>this surprising new way for me to make $$ won't last forever, either, so 
>who knows? I even recently applied as a substitute teacher at a progressive 
>K through 8 grade school to make a little bit of extra money.
>
>So- don't look at success as a binary option. It can, instead, be a very 
>modest, grey and fluid thing.
>
>Does this help?
>
>
>mark
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: MARK / negativland <markhosler at bellsouth.net>
>>>To: "Z-Train Music" <ztrainmusic at hotmail.com>, ginrai at masterforce.org, 
>>>cc-sampling at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>Subject: RE: [cc-sampling] Movie Samples In Songs
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:26:01 -0700
>>>
>>>At 2:03 PM -0700 4/22/04, Z-Train Music wrote:
>>>>Negativland (god bless them) is an exception to majority of record 
>>>>labels. The cost of litigation can easily sink a small label, so they 
>>>>tend to stay away from uncleared samples.
>>>
>>>Actually there are more than a few small and not so small labels who 
>>>don't worry about samples being cleared.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>To Mark's point, selling your own CDs via website, or indy record store 
>>>>will probably not land you in court. But you may be hard pressed to find 
>>>>a label that will sign you. Backing from a label seems to helps in a lot 
>>>>of different ways -- production, distribution, air play, music 
>>>>publication reviews, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>Sometimes. They can also have onerous contracts that can be as bad or 
>>>worse than dealing with major labels. Be sure to have someone who can 
>>>read such things go over any contract you are presented with. I believe 
>>>that www.futureofmusic.org has a section on their site where they dissect 
>>>a typical record biz contract.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>...btw, how many submissions does negativland receive? how many of those 
>>>>do you sign?
>>>
>>>
>>>We don't really "sign" anyone.  Its more of a collective kinda thing, 
>>>where we have to a) really like the work, and b) the artists has to be 
>>>pretty much a self financed total do-it-yourselfer who needs just a bit 
>>>of hand holding and  decent distribution. The artists retain 100% 
>>>ownership of their work and are free to leave Seeland at any time. It's 
>>>not a way to run a profitable business, I can tell you that! It's mostly 
>>>more of a "giving back" to the community of audio weirdos from which we 
>>>sprang.
>>>
>>>To see who else is on our label, check out our site. We only do a few of 
>>>these a year.
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: MARK / negativland <markhosler at bellsouth.net>
>>>>>To: "Z-Train Music" <ztrainmusic at hotmail.com>, ginrai at masterforce.org, 
>>>>>cc-sampling at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>Subject: RE: [cc-sampling] Movie Samples In Songs
>>>>>Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:14:50 -0700
>>>>>
>>>>>At 11:42 AM -0700 4/22/04, Z-Train Music wrote:
>>>>>>Ginrai,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A lot of laptop musicians are emerging, and we all seem to have a lot 
>>>>>>questions around the legality and reality of sampling source audio 
>>>>>>from songs, movies, interviews, spoken word performances or television 
>>>>>>shows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think this is how it goes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>LEGALITY -- If you sample audio that is copyrighted by another entity, 
>>>>>>and you do not obtain a license for that sample, you have probably 
>>>>>>violated copyright law UNLESS: i) the sample comes from a work that is 
>>>>>>"Creatively" licensed (via Creative Commons or another form of open 
>>>>>>licensing); or ii) your use of the sample can be construed as a FAIR 
>>>>>>USE exception.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>As far as we are concerned, if's it's a fragmentary and/or 
>>>>>transformative use, it's ALL fair use! But that doesn't matter- they 
>>>>>can still sue you if they feel like it! But generally they wont feel 
>>>>>like it unless you are making large amounts of money.
>>>>>
>>>>>>  There are some parameters for what constitutes a Fair Use, and the 
>>>>>>biggest one is that you do not directly obtain money from the sale of 
>>>>>>the work containing the sample.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>REALITY -- Entertainment companies (and their lawyers) don't care 
>>>>>>about your sampling until there's a financial incentive for them to 
>>>>>>care. Sample anything you want, but don't expect to sell your work.  
>>>>>>Give your music away as a demo to your friends and family, upload it 
>>>>>>to a file sharing network, send it to college radio stations, create a 
>>>>>>buzz about your self, go nuts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>We sample like crazy, never ask permission, sell the stuff we make as 
>>>>>CDs, and haven't been sued since the early 90's. If you are a 
>>>>>do-it-yourselfer, I don't think you have anything to worry about if you 
>>>>>release it for sale. BUT - you can have trouble with the CD pressing 
>>>>>plants.
>>>>>
>>>>>Go here on our site to read about our own experiences with this -
>>>>>
>>>>>http://negativland.com/riaa/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>mark
>>>>>
>>>>>>Maybe a professional music producer will hear your brilliant work and 
>>>>>>dub you the next big thing. Maybe not. You'll still have a cool 
>>>>>>sounding track. Create what you will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Some advantages to sampling unknown movies: 1) if and when you do 
>>>>>>license the sample, it may be cheaper than getting a license to sample 
>>>>>>Star Wars; 2) the film may be part of the Public Domain, in which case 
>>>>>>a license is not required to sample. If you're not planning on 
>>>>>>licensing the sample, then there aren't really any non-aesthetic 
>>>>>>reasons for mining unknown films.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm sure someone out there will take issue with something I've said in 
>>>>>>this flood of words.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: Ginrai <ginrai at masterforce.org>
>>>>>>>To: cc-sampling at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>Subject: [cc-sampling] Movie Samples In Songs
>>>>>>>Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:36:13 -0700
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi there. New here. I'm a musician and I've been experimenting with 
>>>>>>>samples in my songs. Not musical samples, mind you, but snippets of 
>>>>>>>dialogue from movies. I've heard that a lot bands that use samples 
>>>>>>>like that just use them and hope no one calls them on it (and 
>>>>>>>sometimes they're called on it, like when Skinny Puppy got into 
>>>>>>>trouble by using a sample from Timothy Leery). It seems that it would 
>>>>>>>hardly be worth the effort and red tape and money to try to get 
>>>>>>>permission for a clip that lasts a second and isn't at all musical. 
>>>>>>>I've looked through Skinny Puppy liner notes and they never mention 
>>>>>>>where the samples come from. I've recognized a lot of them, Hitchcock 
>>>>>>>movies, Scanners, A Clockwork Orange, 2001. Some of them are popular 
>>>>>>>and some aren't. From a copyright perspective, I imagine it would be 
>>>>>>>defendable in a lot of cases under fair use. You could say it's your 
>>>>>>>song commenting on the crass commercial society that creaked the 
>>>>>>>insincere movie and such.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I guess my question is, should I just use movie samples and to hell 
>>>>>>>with it? Is it maybe safer to use samples from really obscure lame 
>>>>>>>movies that no one has seen? Any comments are welcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-Ginrai
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>cc-sampling mailing list
>>>>>>>cc-sampling at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-sampling
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>© © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © ©
>>>>>AHOY THERE! I have changed my e-mail address and it is now -
>>>>>
>>>>>mark / negativland <markhosler at bellsouth.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My old address at markhosler at charter.net is no longer being used.
>>>>
>>>>_________________________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>--
>>>© © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © ©
>>>AHOY THERE! I have changed my e-mail address and it is now -
>>>
>>>mark / negativland <markhosler at bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>>
>>>My old address at markhosler at charter.net is no longer being used.
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
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>
>--
>© © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © © ©
>AHOY THERE! I have changed my e-mail address and it is now -
>
>mark / negativland <markhosler at bellsouth.net>
>
>
>My old address at markhosler at charter.net is no longer being used.

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