[b-hebrew] Ezra 1:9, MXLP

Pere Porta pporta7 at gmail.com
Tue Feb 5 01:39:39 EST 2013


The basic and main meaning of XLP is "to pass on/through" as we clearly
have it in Song 2:11: "The rain passed on and went (out / away)"
Now, it is true that in the Hiphil it takes a range of meanings where
"exchange" seems to be the main one.
In Jb 29:20 I cannot understand what TXLYP really means...

I think, Karl, that in Ez 1:9 we have to trust the tradition, which
has understood this word as "knives".  LXX has "parellagmena".

And concerning the form, do you not accept that it can also be a Hiphil
Participle?

Greetings

Pere Porta

2013/2/5 K Randolph <kwrandolph at gmail.com>

> Dear Pere:
>
>  On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 11:00 PM, Pere Porta <pporta7 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My dear friend,
>>
>> Sure, the meaning "(slaughtering) knife" is not obvious from the context.
>> That is why we have to rely on the form.
>> This noun type that begins with M with vowel sound A, namely MA, has
>> several meanings.
>> Basically they have to be taken as Hiphil Participles so that the main
>> resulting meanings of this noun type are:
>>
>
> Actually, from form, it is Piel, Pual or hophal participle. Those are the
> masculine participles that start with a Mem and lack the interior Yod.
>
>
>> 1. -result of the basic concept being happening...  --------> result
>> 2. -place where the basic concept happens --------> place
>> 3. -tool that is used to achieve the basic concept -------> tool or means
>>
>> Some examples:
>>
>> 1. RESULT.  Look at the 6th word in Dn 10:8  -------- vision, sight; also
>> at M(RB, west, sunset (cf Dn 8:5); MXLH, sickness (2Ch 6:28)
>> 2. PLACE: Look at Is 42:16, MX$K --------- dark `place; MXNH, encampment
>> (Dt 23:10) (where people encamp, cf 1Sm 26:5)
>> 3. TOOL/MEANS: Look at Lv 19:23, M)KL, food
>>
>> Some nouns share two of them. And so, MXNH can be considered as the place
>> but also as the result of encamping. That's why we cannot rely too much on
>> a strict and cutting line between the three.
>>
>>
>> What then about our noun?
>> In our case (Ez 1:9) we have a sample of the last: tool.
>> MXLP ------> The tool that makes to PASS through something and by this it
>> divides (something) in parts, cuts (something) in pieces... This is just
>> the main intended normal use of a knife.
>>
>
> What is the meaning of XLP? Is there any place where it necessarily means
> “to pass through”? Or is the meaning more along the line of exchanging
> position where it refers to location?
>
> The other uses seem to refer to change and exchange, not passing through.
>
>>
>> But I say it again: the vowel of the initial M is A (and not E, shewa, or
>> others). (I stress this because you do not trust on masoretic points)
>>
>
> The more I read, the more I question the correctness of the Masoretic
> points.
>
> No, I never have claimed that they invented the tradition preserved in the
> points, but rather that the tradition became corrupted over centuries of
> Aramaic native speaking and even a complete changing the understanding of
> Hebrew grammar centuries before the Masoretes. This would not have been a
> deliberate changing of the tradition, rather as generations of rabbis read
> the text, there would be a little bit here and a tad there that were
> adjusted to fit both the Aramaic milieu and the changed understanding of
> Hebrew grammar, until many points no longer reflected Biblical
> pronunciation nor understanding. So by the time the Masoretes invented
> their points to preserve the tradition, unfortunately that tradition was
> corrupted.
>
> Fortunately, for our understanding, vocabulary is over 90% of
> understanding, grammar can be large wrong, but we’ll be forced to a correct
> understanding in spite of that incorrect grammar because of vocabulary and
> context.
>
> So back to the word in question, in that I see no example that is has a
> meaning of passing through, but all the examples I see indicate that it
> refers to changing or exchanging. That’s why I suspect that the word would
> be more accurately translated referring to priestly robes than slaughtering
> knives.
>
> But I could be overlooking something, so is there any example where
> passing through is a necessary understanding of the word?
>
>
>> Is this enough for you?
>>
>> Hearty greetings from Barcelona.
>>
>> Pere Porta
>>
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>



-- 
Pere Porta
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