[b-hebrew] By Whose God did Goliath Curse...

Uzi Silber uzisilber at gmail.com
Fri Aug 2 18:54:02 EDT 2013


first of all it seems a mess of an editing/redacting job.  secondly was it
not Elhanan who slaughtered Goliat?
as for who's elohav, naturally i grabbed the ol' concordantzia and found
evidence for both cases.

uzi silber



On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Nir cohen - Prof. Mat. <nir at ccet.ufrn.br>wrote:

> dear uri, yigal,
>
> if i may continue uri's comment, plus some free imagination...
>
> it seems (1chr 20:5)that david's
> wars with the philisteus took place much later, when david was
> reigning in jerusalem. actually, before that david appears as an
> ally of the philisteus (1sam 21, 27), though at other places,
> a foe (1sam 19,23). and the sword of goliath was with the high
> sacerdote (1sam 21:10). it is really remarkable that the text makes david
> borrow this sword exactly when he flees to ... the philisteus!
>
> this is just too much contradiction. here is a historical
> interpretation which does not take the text to be historically correct.
>
> david establishes himself as a local leader in judah, and a dissident to
> saul's reign. as his military power is too small for direct confrontation,
> he
> avoids direct war, flees to no man's land and eventually joins forces with
> the
> philisteus (saul's main enemies). after the philisteus destroy saul in
> battle,
> david fills in the space and assumes the throne, and with it his tribe
> judah
> becomes prominent. then his interests change and he starts fighting against
> his former allies, the philisteus. the rest is just stories invented by the
> narrator (clearly of david's followers) directed at masking david's devious
> strategy. in particular, he portrays the war with goliath and other wars
> against the philisteus as if they occurred at a time when he was really
> joining forces with them.
>
> of course, all this is pure conjecture, and is not backed up by the text.
>
> as to the other issue, which god it was, at least the text indeed implies
> that
> davi's god was involved rather than goliath's. see 1sam 17:26,36. and
> especially 45-47.
>
> nir cohen
>
> >>>>De: Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz at yahoo.com>
> Para: "b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Data: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 19:58:39 -0700 (PDT)
> Responder a: Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz at yahoo.com>
>
>
>     Yigal,
>
>   Exactly as you say about the first point: it could be read both ways.
> My
> first reaction is that it refers to David's god/s.
>
>   As for the second question: we're dealing here with a truncated version
> of a
> final narrator or redactor. One simply cannot extract the historical
> background of the narrative, except, perhaps, of an Israelite victory over
> the
> Philistines.
>
>   For the possible real background to the Samuel account of the David's
> victory over Goliath is , as is well known,  in the  Elhanan  story in I
> Chronicles 20:5.
>
>    I am curious to read your paper!
>
>     Ezov haqyr,
>
>     Uri Hurwitz
>
>
>     *
> ________________________________
>
> >>> Dear all, Next week I will be presenting a paper at the IOSOT congress
> in
> Munich,
> which I called "By Whose God did Goliath Curse and Where did David Take his
> Head?". Before doing so, I'd like to present both questions to the members
> of our forum, and see if your reading of the text comes up with the same
> understanding as mine. So here goes: 1. In 1 Sam. 17:43, Goliath, upon
> seeing
> David armed with a slingshot, says
> "Am I a dog, that you comest to me with staves?", and the text then adds:
> “וַיְקַלֵּל הַפְּלִשְׁתִּי אֶת-דָּוִד בֵּאלֹהָיו” – "and the Philistine
> cursed David by his …. So that's my question: Did Goliath curse David by
> his
> (Goliath's) gods, or by his (David's) God". The Hebrew אלהיו is plural in
> form, but the Bible often uses the plural form אלהים when referring to the
> one God of Israel. So the text could mean either. What do you think? 2.
> After
> killing Goliath, David cut off his head. Then, according to verse
> 54, "And David took the head of the Philistine and brought it to Jerusalem,
> and he put his vessels in his tent". Why in the world would David run to
> Jerusalem (which at the time was ruled by the Jebusites) with a bloody
> head?
> Especially if in verse 57 he is still on the battlefield, and still has the
> head! And by the way, whose tent? So – what do y'all think? Yigal Levin
>
>
>
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