[b-hebrew] M-BDYL?

Ishinan ishinan at comcast.net
Tue Sep 4 17:22:39 EDT 2012

Dear Nir,

I have never written that the word "brass" occurs in Genesis 1. My words were a reference to Deuteronomy 28:23 were we do have the word "brass."

Best regards,

Rolf Furuli

Tirsdag 4. September 2012 18:34 CEST skrev "Nir cohen - Prof. Mat." <nir at ccet.ufrn.br>:


  i agree with ishnian that MBDYL should be translated as SEPARATE and not
  MADE OF BRASS. this is also the usual translation.

  firstly, at that point in the creation story, matter appears to
  have been divisible into water and solids, and so "brass" was
  still inexistent as a separate element.

  secondly, as the whole RAQIA is, by itself, a metaphore, an artifact marking
  separation, it is not expected that the text go into its exact composition.
  moreover, as ishnian asks, why BDYL?

  thirdly, grammar. the expression YHY MBDYL BYN MYM LMYM (would be separating
  between water and water) can hardly be separated cohesively into two
  parts (will be made of brass - between waters and waters: the second
  part in fact still made no sense since water was still indivisible!).

  the alternative "separate" fits much better to the text as it is
  followed by the preposition BYN (separate BETWEEN).

  fourth, the thematic. the whole creation of RQYA was made with separation in mind.

  quite on the contrary, the word BDYL (brass), which (technologically
  speaking) may not be as old as genesis, probably derives indeed from
  "separate", hinting at the way the alloy was produced. even the
  identity of BDYL as brass is unclear.

  nir cohen

  >>>De: "Ishnian" 
  Data: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 17:09:11 -0500
  Assunto: [b-hebrew] When the heavens become brass...

  >>>ROLF wrote:
  ......I would argue about RQY( in Genesis 1:6-8. When it is said that the
  heavens will become brass, the one thing (the sky) is called like the other
  one (brass,). Thus, "brass" is a metaphor.

  If the metaphorical language of the Scripture means transporting a meaning
  from one word [here brass *(1) which is an alloy of copper and zinc] to
  another [in this case, the heaven(s)]. My question to you, is why, in your
  opinion, it is such a terrible situation if the heavens become brass?. What
  does this particular metaphor try to convey in the light of Deuteronomy 8:8-9
  *(2) where 'brass' is used in a positive sense?

  Best regards,

  Ishinan Ishibashi

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