[b-hebrew] Genesis 30:20-30

James Christian jc.bhebrew at googlemail.com
Mon May 17 18:31:11 EDT 2010

May I also note that your failure to spot this kind of undermines your
position that reading unpointed text won't lead to better instincts. Your
reliance on cantilation marks certainly didn't seem to help you work this
one out.

James Christian

On 18 May 2010 01:27, James Christian <jc.bhebrew at googlemail.com> wrote:

> Further if we were to adopt your strict formulaic understanding here as you
> point to Genesis 24:47 and 15 as evidence for then that would make Zibeon
> Esau's wife. Context Yitzhak! Context! Your strict understanding of this
> formula is evidently misguided.
> James Christian
> On 18 May 2010 01:08, James Christian <jc.bhebrew at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Yes Yitzhak you are right I learned Hebrew under James Davila but even
>> before that I knew that Hebrew words for son and daughter can also mean
>> grandson and granddaughter. The simple Hebrew text you are pointing to
>> translates as:
>> Oholibamah daughter of Anah granddaughter of Zibeon.
>> Also being fluent in Hebrew I'm sure you can read the simple phrase at the
>> beginning of Genesis 36:20 which quite clearly starts a section about the
>> genealogy of the Horites from Seir on (great great granddaddy Horite). That
>> reference is made to the land of Edom is referring to a geographical
>> location not a family tree. The family tree is quite clearly Horite. Edom's
>> family tree is from verse 9 to 19. 20 to 29 are about the Horites who lived
>> in Edom before Esau's lot (the Edomites). Verses 31 to 42 seems to be about
>> Edomite kings in Edom (presumably after they had driven the Horites out).
>> We get a bit of mixing between the Horites and the Edomites through Anah's
>> daughter (who is also Zibeon's granddaughter).
>> I understand that you feel the Samaritan tradition reads )emim. Please
>> provide a translation that makes contextual sense if you truly feel this to
>> be the case. We are all waiting eagerly.
>> James Christian
>> On 18 May 2010 00:40, Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 1:02 AM, James Christian wrote:
>>> > I've got to be honest with you here Yitzhak, you've totally lost me.
>>> The
>>> > genealogy is a Horite genealogy not an Edomite one. The girl 10 verses
>>> > earlier is his daughter (Oholibamah) not Anah himself. In the Horite
>>> > genealogy it is mentioned that Anah had a daughter Oholibamah while it
>>> is
>>> > usual to only list sons. This is evidently to link Anah in some way
>>> related
>>> > to Esau through one of his wives. Anah, as I understand the text, was
>>> one of
>>> > Esau's father in laws.
>>> > Anyway, just what you were trying to suggest with your lengthy
>>> discussion of
>>> > the Samaritan version is still completely beyond me. You make some
>>> vague
>>> > mention of the Nephilim but failed to provide an alternative reading
>>> that
>>> > would make sense.
>>> > James Christian
>>> James, I have got no idea how to respond here.  I keep looking at it
>>> every day,
>>> and I wonder how to respond.  I mean, I was under the understanding that
>>> you
>>> had a year's study of college first year Hebrew under Jim Davila, based
>>> on
>>> past communication.  Now, here is a verse in pretty simple Hebrew that
>>> reads
>>> אהליבמה בת ענה בת צבעון, yet you write, "The girl 10 verses earlier is
>>> his daughter
>>> (Oholibamah) not Anah himself."  Well, the first בת relates to Oholibamah
>>> but
>>> the second בת relates to (anah.   This is how it works in Hebrew.  See in
>>> Genesis 24:47 - בת בתואל בן נחור.  So, at least at a very basic reading,
>>> Gen
>>> 36:14 and Gen 36:2, suggest that (anah was a girl.  I tried to see if
>>> the cantillation
>>> marks provide disambiguation here, but comparing them to Gen 24:47 or
>>> 24:15,
>>> it doesn't seem to me that they do.
>>> Then regarding the Horite/Hurrian genealogy, you suggest it has nothing
>>> to do
>>> with Edom even though in verse 21 it reads clearly -- "in the land of
>>> Edom."  So
>>> you would like to suggest Edomites would not identify with this because
>>> only Horites would identify with this particular section?  The whole
>>> chapter
>>> deals with Edom.  Verse 1 identifies Esau with Edom.   Verse 8-9 again
>>> identify Esau with Edom, as the father of the Edomites, and as Edom
>>> himself, as well as linking him with Se(ir.  This goes on throughout the
>>> chapter, including verse 21 which relates (anah as one of the chiefs,
>>> of Se(ir, in Edom.  So I don't really understand how your statement that
>>> this
>>> is a Horite genealogy and not an Edomite one goes along with what I read
>>> in
>>> the Hebrew text of my Bible.
>>> As for the lengthy discussion, I find it hard to believe that you read
>>> through
>>> the entire mail and failed to see that I was supporting the reading
>>> )emim,
>>> rather than yemim of the MT.   I also find it curious that you continue
>>> to
>>> note how the Samaritan tradition here is in agreement with this story of
>>> the "bloke who found some hot springs."  I guess you're not one to let
>>> evidence get in the way.
>>> Yitzhak Sapir
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