[b-hebrew] pere's question on he/she/him/her

Kevin Riley klriley at alphalink.com.au
Sat Dec 18 01:09:37 EST 2010


You definitely need 'him', 'her', 'them'.  You cannot have 'of he', etc, 
in English.  The subject form of a pronoun can never follow a 
preposition.  Most times English speakers would change '(in) the 
fact/act of him to speak' to '(in) the fact/act of his speaking'.  I am 
sure there is complicated English grammar involved, but this is a Hebrew 
list, and it's Sabbath, which gives me two good reasons not to think 
about it :)

Kevin Riley

On 18/12/2010 4:44 PM, Pere Porta wrote:
> Nir,
> thank you for your kind explanation.
> But I'd prefer a more direct and precise answer.
> My question is really not on the Hebrew but on the English as this is
> intended to, so to say, literally translate the Hebrew:
>
> ---In Gn 37:4 we have DABRWO, to speak him/it. No problem with the English
> because the suffix -WO plays the part of the object and not of the subject.
>
> ---But in Ex 34:29 we have B'DABRWO. Putting aside preposition B, we have
> the same word.
>
> Now, at literally translating it to the English, which is the right form:
>
> 1. (in) the fact/act of HE to speak
> 2. (in) the fact/act of HIM to speak?
>
> Remark: here in Ex 34:29 the suffix WO plays the part of the subject (and
> not the part of the object as it was the case in Gn 37:4).
>
> This is my question.
> Remark that I'm asking on the English rather than on the Hebrew (I'm not a
> native english-speaking person...)
>
> Pere Porta
> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain)
> 2010/12/17 Nir cohen - Prof. Mat.<nir at ccet.ufrn.br>
>
>> pere,
>>
>> SHEM HAPOAL is a noun which indicates both root and binyan. when used in
>> SMIXUT with a suffix, it always indicates NOSE HAPOAL, not NESU
>> HAPOAL. (in your words, "he" and not "him"). however, whether it
>> would be active or passive depends on the binyan. compare LIDTAH and
>> HIVALDAH (give birth vs. be born). also, gender (m/f), guf (1/2/3)
>> and number (s/p) should agree with the NOSE HAPOAL.
>>
>> as to NESU HAPOAL, it cannot enter as a suffix, and has to appear in
>> separate:
>> LIDTA OTO, LEDET OTO. this is not so in non-noun verb forms, eg HA'ALUHU,
>> HE'ELUHU, YA'ALUHU, where we have two suffixes.
>>
>> the present tense behaves like a noun rather than a verb. for example, it
>> does
>> not agree with guf, only with gender and number. so it also does not
>> admit a NESU HAPOAL. YOLEDET OTO.
>>
>> YOLADETO seems a counter example, but as YOLEDET here does not describe
>> an action but a person, we do not have POAL, hence NOSE/NESU HAPOAL, to
>> begin
>> with, and so there is no problem.
>>
>> nir cohen
>>
>>> Hi, list.
>>> When trying to literally translate infinitives with personal suffix (the
>>> suffix playing the part of the subject of the infinitive) such as:
>>> 1. (A&OTO -------- Jr 30:24
>>> 2. (ALOTO -------- Is 11:16
>>> 3. LIDTAH ---------- Gn 38:27
>>> 4. RIDTAH --------- Dt 20:20
>>> and so on...
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>
>



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