[b-hebrew] Kadesh-barnea

James Christian jc.bhebrew at googlemail.com
Mon Apr 12 13:37:57 EDT 2010

Hi Jim,

so now as I understand it from your latest update your theory now requires
the wholesale relocation of the Edomites???

James Christian

2010/4/12 <JimStinehart at aol.com>

> Unlike most of the Patriarchal narratives, Genesis 36: 8-43 is very late as
> to its composition date, as I believe a majority of scholars would agree.
> It is so late that the author of that addendum to the original Patriarchal
> narratives may have been aware of the 1st millennium BCE state of Edom.
> There is an important Hebrew language issue here regarding Seir.  At
> Genesis 36: 8-9, whose composition is very late, we see a standard
> reference to a
> named mountain or a named mountain range:  “Mount/HR Seir”.  At Genesis 36:
> 8-43, that is Mount Seir, which is a named mountain or named mountain range
> south of the Dead Sea that borders the Arabah.  Note that HR (i) is a
> 2-letter word, (ii) is singular, and (iii) routinely in the Bible precedes
> a
> proper name of a mountain or mountain range.
> Completely different is the following reference in truly ancient chapter 14
> of Genesis, a section of the Patriarchal narratives which many scholars
> (perhaps even a majority of scholars) agree may date all the long way back
> to
> the mid-2nd millennium BCE:  “HRRM Seir”, at Genesis 14: 6.  HRRM is an
> archaic plural, found only in chapter 14 of Genesis.  HRRM means “hill
> country”
> .  Note that HRRM, so unlike HR, (i) is a 4-letter word, (ii) is plural,
> and
> (iii) no plural form of HR or HRR is ever used with an immediately
> following proper name in the Bible to reference a named mountain or a named
> mountain
> range.  So HRRM has a very different meaning here than HR, where both of
> them are immediately followed by the proper name Seir.
> By the word HRRM, Genesis 14: 6 is referring to the “hill country” of the
> Transjordan that surrounds the city of Seir/Jazer, on the east bank of the
> Jordan River.  Seir/Jazer is located precisely in the middle of the hill
> country of the Transjordan.  There is no hill country south of the Dead
> Sea.
> If we focus on the difference between HRRM at Genesis 14: 6 and HR at
> Genesis 36: 8-9, we see that they are referring to two completely different
> places.  Unfortunately, when the #1 Biblical geography scholar in the
> world,
> Anson Rainey, places “Mt. Seir” on a mountain range south of the Dead Sea
> in
> setting forth the route of the 4 attacking rulers in Genesis 14: 5-7 at p.
> 15
> of “The Sacred Bridge”, he is actually picking up “Mt. Seir” from the
> centuries later addendum to the Patriarchal narratives at Genesis 36: 8-9,
> which
> has nothing to do with the 4 attacking rulers.  In that very late section
> of Genesis (namely Genesis 36: 8-9), HR Seir is referring to Mt. Seir south
> of the Dead Sea.  But in chapter 14 of Genesis, the reference at Genesis
> 14:
> 6 is to HRRM Seir.  That’s a completely different part of the world.  That’
> s hill country.  The sentence in which that reference occurs began at
> Genesis 14: 5 with a reference to Ashteroth, which everyone agrees was in
> the
> northern Transjordan.  So the reference at Genesis 14: 6 to HRRM Seir makes
> perfect sense as being a reference to the hill country near Seir/Jazer in
> the
> Transjordan.
> It is really quite striking that not a single item that the #1 Biblical
> geographer lists south of the Dead Sea at p. 15 of “The Sacred Bridge” can
> be
> verified by a secular historical inscription pre-dating the Roman Era.  Not
> one.  The closest one, in fact, is “Mt. Seir”, but that is not what Genesis
> 14: 6 says.  Genesis 14: 6 is referring to HRRM/hill country, and there is
> no hill country south of the Dead Sea.  If we distinguish HRRM from HR, as
> we should, then we see that every single reference at Genesis 14: 6-7 makes
> perfect sense north of the Dead Sea, with almost all such references being
> confirmed by secular historical inscriptions from the Bronze Age north of
> the
> Dead Sea, whereas none of such references makes any sense south of the Dead
> Sea.
> Anson Rainey insists that there is no secular historical documentation to
> back up the Biblical “four kings against five” at Genesis 14: 1-11, which
> he
> views as being pure fiction.  In fact, there is secular historical
> documentation from the Bronze Age out the wazzoo to show the pinpoint
> historical
> accuracy of the “four kings against five”.  But it’s  a-l-l  north of the
> Dead
> Sea, and that is why university scholars have never found it.  University
> scholars have, unfortunately, never once looked north of the Dead Sea for
> secular historical verification of Genesis 14: 6-7, which is one key reason
> why
> university scholars erroneously assert that the “four kings against five”
> at Genesis 14: 1-11 is completely fictional.  In order to show the pinpoint
> historical accuracy of Genesis 14: 1-11, only the following two things are
> needed:  (i) look  n-o-r-t-h  of the Dead Sea for verification of each
> people
> and place referenced at Genesis 14: 6-7, and (ii) do not rely for such
> identifications upon later books in the Bible, which were composed many
> centuries after chapter 14 of Genesis, and in many cases no longer
> understood the
> ancient references in chapter 14 of Genesis.  For example, chapter 14 of
> Genesis is so old that the Amorites had not yet gone extinct when it was
> composed.  So Genesis 14: 7 knows that the historical Amorites were in
> Lebanon, and
> were not, as Rainey’s totally erroneous map would have it, non-historically
> located south of the Dead Sea.  The fact that later books in the Bible did
> not understand who the historical Amorites had been should not prevent us
> today from appreciating the pinpoint historical accuracy of truly ancient
> Genesis 14: 1-11, which was composed by a Hebrew contemporary of the “four
> kings
> against five” in the Bronze Age.
> Jim Stinehart
> Evanston, Illinois
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