[b-hebrew] Fwd: questions, reliable evidence, 'stand' and 'said'
furuli at online.no
Thu Jul 9 06:07:38 EDT 2009
As you imply, before a meaningful discussion can
be performed, we need to know exactly how we both
define perfective and imperfective. So far you
have only given two + expressions of the
perfective aspect and have said nothing regarding
the imperfective one. And with all due respect, I
do not understand what "+ a virtual whole" means.
Are not all events with an event time or states
"virtual wholes," each having a beginning and
end? I also have problems with "+an endpoint
attained". Does that mean that the action or
state expressed by a perfective BH verb is
completed at reference time? In other words, are
actions and states expressed by perfective verbs
As mentioned I would like to ask you for a
definition of the imperfective verb. And in order
to distinguish between the aspects I have the
1. Can both the perfective and imperfective make
a *part* of an action or state visible?
2. Can both aspects make the details of an event visible?
3. Can both aspects include both the beginning
and the end of an action or a state?
4. Can both aspects express conative and resultative situations?
>Please tell us your definition of perfective and imperfective. What
>are the characteristics of a perfective and an imperfective verb
>respectively, and by which criteria can the two verbs (actions) be
>for purposes of the thread a perfective has
>+ a virtual whole
>+ an endpoint or point of attainment
>+/- a definition that would include the
>" `amad 'suffix-TAM' examples"
>If you want further discussions of definition, then please provide
>something for the `amad clauses as a workable starting point.
>2Chr 20:20, 2 Samuel 20:11 and 12, 2 Ki 2:7
To illustrate the definitions by examples is
fine. I think that more list-members will benefit
from the discussion when I use an English
translation of a verse and supply the BH verb
form than from a BH transcription. Sometimes your
expressions are very short and to some extent
somewhat cryptic, as "+/- a definition that would
include the "`amad `suffix-TAM examples"" I guess
that the majority of list-members do not
understand exactly what you mean by this. Then to
In the 28 verses of Ezekiel, chapter 1, and the
22 verses of chapter 10, we find 28 YIQTOLs, 15
WAYYIQTOLs, 2 QATALs, and 7 participles with
past meaning. The question is whether there is an
aspectual difference between the YIQTOLs,
WAYYIQTOLs, and the QATALs. And if so, how can we
see this aspectual difference? I use the verb
(MD in these verses.
Ezek. 1:21 When the creatures moved (INF.CON.-
HLK), they also moved (YIQTOL -HLK); when the
creatures stood still (INF.CON. (MD) , they also
stood still (YIQOL-(MD); and when the creatures
rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with
them, because the spirit of the living creatures
was in the wheels.
Ezek. 1:24 When the creatures moved, I heard the
sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing
waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the
tumult of an army. When they stood still
(INF.CON. -(MD), they lowered (YIQTOL-RPH) their
Ezek. 10:3 Now the cherubim were standing
(PARTICIPLE) on the south side of the temple when
the man went in, and a cloud filled the inner
Ezek. 10:6 When the LORD commanded the man
in linen, "Take fire from among the wheels, from
among the cherubim," the man went in and stood
(WAYYIQTOL) beside a wheel.
Ezek. 10:17 When the cherubim stood still
(INF.CON), they also stood still (YIQTOL); and
when the cherubim rose, they rose with them,
because the spirit of the living creatures was in
Ezek. 10:18 ¶ Then the glory of the LORD
departed from over the threshold of the temple
and stopped (WAYYIQTOL) above the cherubim.
Ezek. 10:19 While I watched, the cherubim spread
their wings and rose from the ground, and as they
went, the wheels went with them. They stopped
(WAYYIQTOL) at the entrance to the east gate of
the LORD'S house, and the glory of the God of
Israel was above them.
In these verses we have two occurrences of the
verb (MD as YIQTOL and three as WAYYIQTOL. Do
these forms have different aspects? And in that
case, how can we see it? Or is it not possible to
see it? And what about the other 26 YIQTOLs with
past reference? Do they have different aspects
compared with the WAYYIQTOLs? My answer is No.
The YIQTOLs and the WAYYIQTOLs are all
imperfective, and the reason why the YIQTOLs are
used, is that some word element precedes each
one, and therefore, a WAY- prefix would not be
possible. Interestingly, we find the same kind
of account in the Ethipic Enoch, and here we we
also have a great number of prefix forms with
We may also bring WEYIQTOL into the picture. In
Nehemiah 3:14, 15 we find 2 YIQTOLs and 3
WEYIQTOLs, all with past reference. Are these
perfective or imperfective? There are two
WEYIQTOLs of )MD. Are the end made visible in
Neh. 3:14 The Dung Gate was repaired
(QATAL) by Malkijah son of Recab, ruler of the
district of Beth Hakkerem. He rebuilt (YIQTOL) it
and put (WEYIQTOL- (MD)) its doors and bolts and
bars in place.
Neh. 3:15 ¶ The Fountain Gate was repaired
(QATAL) by Shallun son of Col-hozeh, ruler of the
district of Mizpah. He rebuilt it (YIQTOL),
roofing (WEYIQTOL) it over and putting (WEYIQTOL)
its doors and bolts and bars in place. He also
repaired the wall of the Pool of Siloam, by the
King's Garden, as far as the steps going down
from the City of David.
>Randall Buth, PhD
>randallbuth at gmail.com
>Biblical Language Center
>Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
University of Oslo
More information about the b-hebrew