[b-hebrew] d of z

Yigal Levin leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il
Sun Oct 12 00:07:14 EDT 2008


Hi Doug,

We really don't "know" who wrote any of the books of the Hebrew Bible, if by 
"know" you mean "have hard evidence". Of course, there are age-old 
traditions, which may or may not be historically accurate. But if we assume 
that the words recorded in Isaiah 1-39 (at least) were originally said by 
the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz, then judging by the events to which this 
Isaiah refers as what seems to be an eye-witness and the kings in whose 
reign he was active, he must have lived during the late 8th and early 7th 
centuries BCE. As far as Kings, the book we call Kings could not have 
existed in its present form before the latest event recorded in it, which 
brings us down to about 550 BCE. Of course, it could have been "written" 
much later then that, and it certainly went through later editing, but in 
any case, as I wrote, (first) Isaiah was originally written before Kings, so 
the "parallel" chapters were either copied from Isaiah to Kings, or added to 
Isaiah by a later redactor.


Yigal Levin


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Belot" <dbelot at bigpond.net.au>
To: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] d of z


> That is interesting that you say Kings was written after Isaiah , how do 
> you
> know that , and do we know who wrote Genisis , oh and I just thought with 
> is
> 5 and songs , by the same melodything , it seems to me to be written in
> similar style  , say as when we hear a beatles song , or Abba , you can 
> tell
> that they have an indiviual style , this seems something like that, anyway
> thanks , doug belot
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il>
> To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] d of z
>
>
>> Dear Doug,
>>
>> I'm not sure what you mean by "corporate" here, but "D. of Z." is
>> obviously
>> a poetic term, used by prophets from the 8th century BCE onwards. Isaiah,
>> of
>> course, did not copy from Kings since he lived before Kings was written.
>> Either the author of Kings chose to copy parts of Isaiah, or a late
>> redactor
>> of the Book of Isaiah chose to copy these passages from Kings.
>>
>> I'm not sure what you mean by Is 5:1-7 having "a melody in its prose
>> similar
>> to Songs of Solomon". Some of the imagery is similar, but the two are
>> actually quite different.
>>
>> Yigal
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Doug Belot" <dbelot at bigpond.net.au>
>> To: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il>
>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] d of z
>>
>>
>>> Yigal it seems as tho the term d of z only comes into the Scriptures
>>> after
>>> 2nd kgs 19:21 ,it does to me suggest a "youger generation" of Israelites
>>> ,
>>> hence maybe the using terminolgy of "mother" and children , and d of z ,
>>> I
>>> am believing that here the term "Zion" is referring to corporate Israel 
>>> ,
>>> as
>>> say in Is 49:14.and her daughters are the coming generations , which
>>> would
>>> make present day Jews corporate the "daughters of Zion" , it is used in
>>> the
>>> prophecies many many times .
>>>
>>> Do you have any ideas on why Isaiah put 2nd kings 18:13-2nd kgs 19 as
>>> chapters 36-37 in Isaiah , is there a litteral and non literal message
>>> here
>>> .
>>>
>>> Plus , and this is a bit of a reach , but Is 5:1-7 seems to have a 
>>> melody
>>> in
>>> its prose similar to Songs of Solomon , and is talking about "my Well
>>> beloved" , similar to the Songs plea , say 2;16.
>>>
>>> Ok thanks Yigal
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Yigal Levin" <leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il>
>>> To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 6:18 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] d of z
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello again Doug,
>>>>
>>>> I think that the conventional reading of "daughter of Zion" is that it
>>>> always refers to either the city of Jerusalem, or to the
>>>> land/people/kingdom
>>>> of Judah as a whole. "Zion", as I'm sure you know, is a name for the
>>>> hill
>>>> on
>>>> which Jerusalem was built, the hill that we also call "Moriah" or "The
>>>> Temple Mount" (the use of "Zion" specifically for the western hill of
>>>> the
>>>> Old City that is common now is a Second Temple Period
>>>> misidentification).
>>>> I can't think off-hand of any case in which "daughter of Zion" refers 
>>>> to
>>>> "Israel" as a whole.
>>>>
>>>> Yigal Levin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Doug Belot" <dbelot at bigpond.net.au>
>>>> To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 2:39 AM
>>>> Subject: [b-hebrew] d of z
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi to all Hebrew scholars ,may I ask this question...
>>>>>
>>>>> In 2nd Kgs 19:21 we see a reply from the LORD , to Sennacherib this 
>>>>> way
>>>>>
>>>>> 2nd Kgs 19:21  The daughter of Zion has despised you , the daughter of
>>>>> Jerusalem has shaken her head at you behind your back.
>>>>>
>>>>> This verse is repeated in Is 37:22 , also we find the term "daughter 
>>>>> of
>>>>> Zion" used in many places , most obvious is Is 1:8 , Is 52:2 and Is
>>>>> 62:11
>>>>> would I be out of ordert o consider that this "daughter" is a 
>>>>> corporate
>>>>> term for Israel / Judah , after the Rehoboam/Jeroboam split .
>>>>>
>>>>> And could I thus be able to say that all such terminology was meant to
>>>>> be
>>>>> taken as corporate Israel , or is it splitting Jerusalem and Israel .
>>>>>
>>>>> And as the term comes direct from the Lord could I thus think that 
>>>>> this
>>>>> is
>>>>> a term that he now regards Israel as, the daughter of Zion/Jerusalem
>>>>>
>>>>> Doug Belot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> b-hebrew mailing list
>>>>> b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>
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