[b-hebrew] About Dagesh's

Vadim Cherny him at vadimcherny.org
Thu Jun 19 13:53:45 EDT 2008

Piel has general semantics of a command, strong action. Why not consider 
a parallel in milspeak which strengthens the second consonant and 
reduces the first vowel? That's exactly what we see in piel: davar - 
[d'vvvvAar!!!] - d'ber - diber.

Vadim Cherny

Isaac Fried wrote:
> It is conceivable that the dagesh in middle radical of the piel and 
> the pual forms are just vestiges of a hinting system preceding the 
> nikud. I can imagine the public Torah reader or the local teacher 
> placing a discreet central dot, pertaining to the entire word, in, 
> say, the B of $BR of Exodus 9:25
> ואת כל עשב השדה הכה הברד ואת כל עץ השדה שבּר
> in order to remember to read it $IBER and not $ABAR.
> Similarly, a dot was placed in the B of TB(U of Exodus 15:4
> ומבחר שלשיו טבּעו בים סוף
> to remember to read it as TUB(U, not TAB(U.
> The nakdanim incorporated this hinting system in the nikud and the 
> result is what we have today.
> Isaac Fried, Boston University
> On Jun 16, 2008, at 11:06 PM, Isaac Fried wrote:
>> Yakov,
>> Allow me to write V for a soft bet, and B for a hard. Also, F for a
>> soft pe and P for a hard. Recall also that $ is shin.
>> So we have in Hebrew DAVAR, 'thing, word', but also DABAR, 'leader,
>> speaker'. We have NAFAX, 'blew', but also NAPAX, 'blacksmith'.
>> I do not know why there is a dagesh in the middle radical of the piel
>> form, but does it practically matter now if we write NI$EK, 'kissed',
>> without a dagesh in the $? Those who pretend to read it NI$-$EK
>> delude themselves. I think that BK"P became hard thereby only
>> incidentally, but now we are stuck with this phenomenon and need to
>> say DIBER, not DIVER.
>> Look at the word KAF, 'palm of the hand'. 'My hand' is KAPI. Why is
>> the pe now dgusha? Because, say the grammar books, the word is from
>> the root KPP. So what? Does this have to turn an F into a P?
>> Conclusion: The less you explain the better off you are.
>> Isaac Fried, Boston University
>> On Jun 16, 2008, at 9:43 PM, Yakov Hadash wrote:
>>> On Jun 16, 2008, at 8:11 PM, Isaac Fried wrote:
>>>> We will need to keep the dot, the "dagesh qal", in the letters
>>>> bet, kaf, pe to distinguish between their "hard" and "soft"
>>>> manifestation. Otherwise, the dagesh is redundant in plain speech.
>>> Yeah but you didn't address my issue.
>>> Without the dagesh hazak, there is no way of explaining a lot of
>>> confusing issues with vocalizing Hebrew, especially with פיעל
>>> and התפעל, which have dagesh hazak as part of the stem.
>>> Do you want people to just not be able to know why there's a noun
>>> "davar" and a verb "medabber" (and not "davar" and "medaver")?
>>> YH.
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