[b-hebrew] About Dagesh's

Isaac Fried if at math.bu.edu
Mon Jun 16 17:56:07 EDT 2008


Vadim,

Your theory about the nikud being geared to cantillation is  
interesting. In fact, I have just listened [while waiting for my hair  
to be cut] to a Sphardi man, a certain Mr. PALAX, chant Psalms  
Tunisian style. The environment was not conducive to great attention  
but one thing I noticed is that he indeed stretches the qametz, said  
by Hebrew grammarian to be a long vowel, to croon NA-A-A-PLU. It  
sounds beautiful, leisurely and appealing but this is not ordinary  
hurried speech. 'They fell down' is just NAPLU, said in one breath.
If your theory is correct it would imply that the rules of Hebrew  
grammar are practically irrelevant. As I said, Remove all the dgeshim  
and no one will miss one of them.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Jun 16, 2008, at 3:11 PM, Vadim Cherny wrote:

> Is there any arguments against a simple rule that dagesh only  
> exists on cantillation and there only to avoid jamming (hazak - of  
> post-tonic vowels, kal - of clustered consonants)?
> I spoke with a number of opera singers and all of them confirmed a  
> need for such a stop.
>
> Vadim Cherny
>
>
> Isaac Fried wrote:
>> <div class="moz-text-flowed" style="font-family: -moz-fixed">As  
>> for the masora we need to separate fact from fiction, or practice  
>> from theory. It is a fact that in Exodus 12:31 the word C)U is  
>> with an apparently authentic dagesh in the zade, why is the dagesh  
>> there is free for all theoretical explanation.
>> I am suspicious of arguments depending on syllable formation. Some  
>> grammar books have this "rule" that after a qametz, considered by  
>> them for some obscure reason to be a "TNU(AH GDOLAH", the schwa is  
>> "NA(", or an opener of a syllable. By this logic the word $ABRU,  
>> for instance, is to be read $A-BRU [$AAA-BRU?], which could only  
>> be suggested by someone who has actually never tried to speak Hebrew.
>>
>> Isaac Fried, Boston University
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2008, at 2:31 AM, Yitzhak Sapir wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Yaakov Stein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Here are two instances of a dagesh having apparently the sole  
>>>>> purpose
>>>> of marking the first letter of a word; specifically,
>>>>> to warn against the moving of an U from the end of a word to the
>>>> beginning of the next.
>>>>> 1. ?????? ?????? ???????? ??????, Exodus 12:31, to prevent the  
>>>>> reading
>>>> QUM UC)U.
>>>>> 2. ?????? ?????? ????????? ???-????? ???????, Deuteronomy 2:24, to
>>>> prevent the reading QUM US(U.
>>>>
>>>> Isaac
>>>>
>>>> First, every time you embed Hebrew I get question marks.
>>>>
>>>> Second, if you already mention QUMU C)U in Exodus,
>>>> you shouldn't forget the exact same expression in Genesis 19:14.
>>>> On this expression MINHAT SHAI remarks that there are 5 similar
>>>> dageshes after ) H W Y.
>>>
>>> There are many more cases of conjunctive dagesh than 5.  The rules
>>> regarding bgdkpt following vowels or )hwy is given in #399, of  
>>> Yeivin's
>>> book, with exceptions in #400.  I really recommend that you get  
>>> Yeivin's
>>> book if you want to learn about the Masora:
>>> Yeivin, I. 1980. Introduction to the Tiberian Masorah. Atlanta:
>>> Society of Biblical Literature.
>>>
>>> On the main rule of the conjunctive dagesh (#399), Yeivin points out
>>> that in some cases as in Ex 15:13, no vowel letter is used, nxyt  
>>> bxsdk,
>>> whereas in other cases the vowel letter is used to close a syllable
>>> so that the next word takes a dagesh, as in Num 22:2, wyr) blq.
>>>
>>> Yitzhak Sapir
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> b-hebrew mailing list
>>> b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>
>>
>> </div>
>




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