[b-hebrew] Definite Article 7:14 - HRH
JoeWallack at aol.com
JoeWallack at aol.com
Sun Jul 22 13:21:54 EDT 2007
In a message dated 7/21/2007 11:28:14 AM Central Daylight Time,
hholmyard3 at earthlink.net writes:
> "14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the
> young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call
> " הָרָה " = "is pregnant"
> This is the perfect tense.
HH: It is not the perfect tense.
הָרָה HRH is not even a verb but an adjective. The verb has to be supplied
and could be either present or future (or past).
First, do you agree that BH has perfect and imperfect distinction?
> You can once again do "Does not necessarily", "it
> could" as even The Rashi
> takes it here as imperfect (I think because of the prophecy connection)
> for your benefit and Karl's
> if we go by examples in the Hebrew Bible, this construction is usually
> So now, regarding the offending word in 7:14, we have the nearby Textual
> Markers of:
> HNH = Here is
> HRH = Is pregnant
HH: Here is another issue with your thought process. If you put these
together, you would have:
"Here is the virgin is pregnant." That makes no sense. So you better
stick with "Behold" for your theory.
You are being remarkably restrictive for such a compact language. "Here is
the young woman that is pregnant". "Here is the pregnant young woman". No good?
As Kohan said in the classic, "The Wrath of Kohan", your translation would
be "far worse". What is your translation here again?
Actually "Behold" & "Look" have a connotation of pysical presence anyway,
> All completely consistent with a young woman who is not only known to
> and Ahaz but physically present.
HH: Yes, it is possible.
> The HRH could even be physically noticeable
> (this would fit the larger context of a "forced" prophecy.
HH: Yes, this is possible.
> You would agree
> that it's forced on Ahaz. That may not be the limit of it's
> Consider that the two nearest Textual Markers support a physical presence
> Harold, your indefinite translation is looking merely like a possible one
> this point.
HH: Yes, of course, I explained what I thought was probable. I did not
> One that could not possibly be likely, even in your opinion, as to
> this point you always have to use minority meanings. You need a miracle
> the larger context to Save your meaning.
HH: No, I don't need a miracle. I do need a prophecy of the future in
the larger context to save my meaning. But that is exactly what we have.
Unsupported assertion at this point.
> "HNH does not have to
> imply anything about physical presence. In the verse HNH is drawing
> attention to what a/the virgin will do, not to the presence of the
> HRH is a very physical sign and a very common one in the Hebrew Bible as
> evidence of
> God's mysterious power and presence in human affairs (so to speak).
HH: What I said is true, and what you said is true. But there are so
many cases where HRH does not refer to something physically present that
your point carries no argumentative weight for Isa 7:14, at least for me.
I think you mean HNH here and not HRH.
I point out what is most common and you respond in part with "carries no
argumentative weight for Isa 7:14, at least for me." Further response from
me would involve primarily commenting on the relationship of the evidence
to your conclusion which distracts from my primary purpose of the
relationship of the evidence to THE conclusion.
Suffice it to say that at this point with:
there is nothing which favors your translation.
יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה
הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ
אֵל. 14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the
young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
" וְקָרָאת " = and you will call
This is second person feminine right? As in "you" referring to a present
female. Yes, I know, "Does not necessarily", "it could". But it's either
support for a present female or neutral for your desired translation
whatever that may currently be.
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