[b-hebrew] Definite Article 7:14
JoeWallack at aol.com
JoeWallack at aol.com
Sun Jul 8 19:35:30 EDT 2007
In a message dated 6/26/2007 1:58:06 PM Central Daylight Time,
hholmyard3 at earthlink.net writes:
> Whoa Nelliphim! The general example above of Hebrew having a different
> emphasis is an INTER language issue. Theoretically all Hebrew Bible
> be on the same page, so to speak. Your example in the preceding paragraph
> an INTRA language issue. The subject is definite to the Hebrew Bible
> and indefinite to the Hebrew Bible hearer. The default position is that
> is definite to the Hebrew Bible speaker would be definite to the Hebrew
> Bible hearer. What specific examples of this do you claim (other than
HH: It can serve most of the examples we've discussed, theoretically all
of them, since it is a category of usage for which these examples are
cited. And the thought could be the same in the reader's mind as in the
writer's. It does not have to be, as you suggest, definite for one and
indefinite for the other. It is equally definite and generic for both.
The one who escapes, if we provisionally accept that idea for Gen 14:13,
would be, in both writer and hearer, a genus: "the one who escaped,"
used specifically of an otherwise unidentified person who came to
Abraham with news of Sodom.
This is non-responsive to my question above. If you are willing to try
harder I suggest you try to answer my one important question above:
What examples would you give in the Hebrew Bible of the Author being
Definite and the immediate Hebrew hearer taking it as Indefinite?
>> If one is honest with the context in Isaiah 7, there is no real reason
>> to assume that there was any particular woman that the term in question
>> pointed to. There is no other woman mentioned in the context except
>> Isaiah's wife, who was not a virgin and seems to have had grown sons (so
>> was not a young woman either). Good writers don't use totally obscure
>> references, and I believe God inspired the biblical writers.
> As far as using the observation that there is no other woman mentioned in
> the context, if your meaning above is that this by itself forces a
> indefinite, that is proof-texting. If I, in return, pointed out one
> consideration as proof of definite I have Faith that you would likewise be
HH: Here's the rub. I have only a limited amount of time to devote to
this subject. There is a great deal of support for this category of
usage by grammarians and translators. So I have no predisposition to
reject it. Numerous examples are given of the usage. Focusing on the
particular case in view, Isa 7:14, there seem to be good reasons to
support it. Having looked at arguments presented to overthrow about a
dozen of the supposed cases of the usage, I found the counter-arguments
weak or unconvincing. So I, for the time being, have no motivation to go
into this further.
If I understand the category correctly it is something definite to the
author that is indefinite to the immediate Hebrew hearer. I don't think there is
any such category of Hebrew as the previous sentence has a natural
contradiction. If someone did accept such a category than they would have a huge amount
of Uncertainty regarding whether any Author meant the Definite or Indefinite.
An uncertainty I have Faith you do not possess.
Assuming my understanding of your category is correct how do you
specifically apply it to 7:14?
I think we can do without the "If one is honest". Yes?
HH: From my perspective, it is wise to go along with grammars and other
scholars unless there is strong reason to reject what their wisdom over
the centuries has accumulated. Since I have nothing that weighs heavily
against their view so far, I look at the few who have reservations as
people who bear the burden of proving the accepted category to be wrong.
I have seen nothing that does this so far. David suggests that if I read
the whole article that he provided, I might change my mind. If I have
time, I will read further in it.
Well you might want to do a current survey of translations. I believe that
now the majority of Christian translations have "the".
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
More information about the b-hebrew