[b-hebrew] Replaying

pporta at oham.net pporta at oham.net
Thu Dec 13 06:54:10 EST 2007


>> person-marking. I repeat: gender-marking is not person-marking!

David,

As regards noun-adjective, yes, I agree.

By the way, I think the problem with Isaac Fried is this: either he does not 
want to strive to explain things in such a manner that most of us can 
understand what he says....  or really his theories, statements, assertions 
and so on are without any solid base.

If it is the first thing .... there is no point in keeping discussing with 
him. And if it is the second thing... ... the same!

If he sincerely thinks he is right, he should do every effort to explain his 
ideas... specially when some of listers have read his writing/s  --whose URL 
Isaac himself gave us here some days ago--  and his ideas or message did not 
become clearer to readers after reading it/them.

This is, imho, the central issue, the core thing with him.

Pere Porta
Barcelona

>> Hi Pere,
>>
>> Personally, I think you are wrong and I have indeed raised a linguistic
>> argument against his assertion. Practitioners of more "formal"
>> linguistic persuasion would even have more to say than what I've 
>> outlined.
>>
>> Gender-marking indexes an *attribute* of the referent, not the referent
>> itself, whether that be the head noun in the case of an adjective, or
>> the referent of the noun in the case of the noun (I'm leaving aside the
>> issue of non-semantic gender-marking here as it's a side issue). That
>> is, it does not refer to the "bearer" or "thing" itself unlike
>> person-marking. I repeat: gender-marking is not person-marking!
>
> ________________
>
> I may agree with you in a general way.
>
> Indeed, while a final -T may refer both to male ("amarta" Jr 45:3) and
> female ("amart" 2Sa 6:22) second person singular...what about such words 
> as
> "YFR:)FH", she feared (Jr 3:8), where final -H
> is both marker of gender and of person?
> Is it something merely
> coincidental, a hazardous or chancy case?
>
> Pere Porta
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> David Kummerow.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> The problem with the statement is that it assumes that the
>>>> gender-marking of the adjective and noun is in fact person-marking
>>>> (speech-participant marking), here third-person. That's why he says
>>>> "-AH refers to the *feminine bearer* of the attribute" and "-AH refers
>>>> to *the thing itself*."
>>>
>>> __________
>>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> I think Isaac is right when he says
>>> "-AH
>>>> refers to the *feminine bearer* of the attribute" and "-AH refers to
>>>> *the thing itself*."
>>>
>>> In Ec 9:16 we find "tovAH", (female) good (adjective, feminine form),
>>> and in Nm 24:13 we find "tovAH", welfare, goodness (substantive 
>>> feminine)
>>>
>>> I think nothing can be raised against his assertion.
>>>
>>> Pere Porta
>>> Barcelona (Catalonia, Spain)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Even more bizarre and illogical is his example of what has
>>>> traditionally been seen to be gender-marking is in fact second-person
>>>> marking:
>>>>
>>>> "The counterpart to MAR, 'mister' is MAR-AT, where -AT is surely the
>>>> personal pronoun AT, 'you'."
>>>>
>>>> These assertions rest on no linguistic foundation whatsoever and are
>>>> able to be uttered only because of naiveness in relation to the
>>>> fundamentals and basics of general linguistics. No linguist would give
>>>> assent to them.
>>>>
>>>> Rather, gender-marking on nouns and adjectives is an indexical or
>>>> agreement coding strategy which indexes a semantic dependency of that
>>>> indicated by the morpheme in question. In this sense, then, I take it
>>>> that gender-marking "refers", but this issue is actually theoretically
>>>> divisive, so not everyone will agree with this statement. But
>>>> gender-marking on nouns and adjectives is not to be equated and
>>>> collapsed with person-marking!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> David Kummerow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> David,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not Isaac's advocate, but I ask you: what  do you find to be
>>>>> wrong or mistaken in this statement of his?:
>>>>>
>>>>> "4. In the adjective TOBAH, 'good', -AH refers to the feminine bearer
>>>>> of
>>>>> the attribute, but in the noun TOBAH, 'favor, goodness', -AH refers to
>>>>> the thing itself."
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards from
>>>>>
>>>>> Pere Porta
>>>>> Barcelona (Catalonia, Spain)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>
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