[b-hebrew] Explain it please

David Kummerow farmerjoeblo at hotmail.com
Tue Dec 11 18:43:38 EST 2007


Isaac,

I think you are playing avoidance word-games.

It should be pretty clear to you that I am challenging these assertions 
you have made without any language or theoretical evidence:

"There is no such thing in Hebrew as a "vowel", except for A. The idea 
of the vowel is an alien carry-over into Hebrew from Indo-European grammar."

"In the adjective TOBAH, 'good', -AH refers to the feminine bearer of 
the attribute, but in the noun TOBAH, 'favor, goodness', -AH refers to 
the thing itself."

"The counterpart to MAR, 'mister' is MAR-AT, where -AT is surely the 
personal pronoun AT, 'you'."

If the problems with your theories which I have continued to point out 
to you do not make "sense", then it is clear you are not sufficiently 
versed in the fundamentals and basics of general linguistics even though 
you yourself are propounding linguistic analyses. This means, I think, 
that you should either skill yourself in the basics to defend your 
theories adequately, or retract them as having been uttered in 
linguistic naiveness.

Regards,
David Kummerow.


> David,
> 
> I did not say I don't understand you. I understand you very well. I said 
> that I am unable to make sense of what you are saying.
> 
> Isaac Fried, Boston University
> 
> 
> On Dec 11, 2007, at 4:24 AM, David Kummerow wrote:
> 
>> Dear Isaac,
>>
>> Do you not understand it all, or only one bit specifically?
>>
>> In all seriousness, if you are unable to understand these simple 
>> linguistic matters I raise, then I think you are unfit to make 
>> statements such as the following recent ones:
>>
>> "There is no such thing in Hebrew as a "vowel", except for A. The idea 
>> of the vowel is an alien carry-over into Hebrew from Indo-European 
>> grammar."
>>
>> And:
>>
>> "4. In the adjective TOBAH, 'good', -AH refers to the feminine bearer 
>> of the attribute, but in the noun TOBAH, 'favor, goodness', -AH refers 
>> to the thing itself."
>>
>> And also:
>>
>> "5 The counterpart to MAR, 'mister' is MAR-AT, where -AT is surely the 
>> personal pronoun AT, 'you'."
>>
>> Everything I have raised with you is of an elementary and foundational 
>> linguistic level. In my opinion, you really need to come to grips with 
>> the basics before you attempt more of the "higher level" analysis of 
>> which you are attempting. To put it in terms relevant to your own 
>> field: you would require of someone attempting algebra to be familiar 
>> and able in the basics of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and 
>> division else fundamental mistakes would likely be made. This 
>> principle is no less relevant to the field of general linguistics. If 
>> you were to present these ideas of yours on a linguistics forum they 
>> would certainly be deemed "crackpotish".
>>
>> Regards,
>> David.
>>
>>
>>
>>> David,
>>> I am terribly sorry but I am unable to make sense of what you are 
>>> saying.
>>> Isaac Fried, Boston University
>>> On Dec 10, 2007, at 11:50 PM, David Kummerow wrote:
>>>> Hi Isaac,
>>>>
>>>> I take it that you did indeed deny more than one vowel. You stated 
>>>> (http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2007-November/034625.html): 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "There is no such thing in Hebrew as a "vowel", except for A. The 
>>>> idea of the vowel is an alien carry-over into Hebrew from 
>>>> Indo-European grammar."
>>>>
>>>> To me this statement can only be construed to mean that you only 
>>>> accept "A" as a vowel in BH -- hence only one vowel.
>>>>
>>>> Do you accept that the "sounds" you list have phonemic status in BH? 
>>>> If so, then a consequence of this is not every "U", "I", etc need be 
>>>> a personal pronoun, which I have outlined in a previous post. This 
>>>> is a by-product of accepting these vowels as phonemes.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, what of my question, namely, What is your evidence for 
>>>> equating what has traditionally been analysed as gender marking to 
>>>> actually be speech-participant marking?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> David Kummerow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> David,
>>>>> Do you really think that I am, or was, denying the existence of the 
>>>>> U, I, O, E sounds in Hebrew?
>>>>> Isaac Fried, Boston University
>>>>> On Dec 10, 2007, at 11:09 PM, David Kummerow wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Isaac,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It puzzles you, I think, because you seem to be unfamiliar with 
>>>>>> basic linguistic principles and methodology, even though you 
>>>>>> yourself propose something "linguistic".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am am unsure what you mean by "Where is the single vowel". It was 
>>>>>> you who proposed this idea that BH has only one vowel 
>>>>>> (http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2007-November/034625.html). 
>>>>>> Are you now suggesting that there are no vowels? or that there are 
>>>>>> more than one vowel and that you are retracting your previous 
>>>>>> assertion?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I say it is "impossible" because human language requires more 
>>>>>> contrast for linguistic production than what a single vowel can 
>>>>>> provide. Known human languages around the world only minimally 
>>>>>> have two vowels, so the burden of proof rests with you. Further, 
>>>>>> not every theoretical vowel combinations are possible, but those 
>>>>>> with greater contrasts are preferred. See Björn Lindblom, 
>>>>>> "Phonetic universals in vowel systems," in Experimental phonology 
>>>>>> (John Ohala and Jeri Jaeger, eds.; Dordrecht: Foris, 1986), 13-44.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> David Kummerow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>> I am really puzzled by your statement:
>>>>>>> your contention -- again without adduced evidence -- that BH has 
>>>>>>> only a
>>>>>>> single vowel is linguistically impossible
>>>>>>> Where is the single vowel and why is it linguistically impossible?
>>>>>>> Isaac Fried, Boston University
>>>>>>> On Dec 10, 2007, at 3:45 AM, David Kummerow wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Isaac,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You wrote this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Even though -AH is in my opinion but a contracted HI) it may 
>>>>>>>>> refer
>>>>>>>>> to various agents and objects in various relationship modes. We 
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> YALDAH, 'girl, child-she', YALDAH, 'she gave birth, 
>>>>>>>>> produced-a-chid-
>>>>>>>>> she' and YALDAH, 'her boy, boy-she'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4. In the adjective TOBAH, 'good', -AH refers to the feminine 
>>>>>>>>> bearer
>>>>>>>>> of the attribute, but in the noun TOBAH, 'favor, goodness', -AH
>>>>>>>>> refers to the thing itself. Incidentally it is "female", as is
>>>>>>>>> autostradah.
>>>>>>>>> 5 The counterpart to MAR, 'mister' is MAR-AT, where -AT is 
>>>>>>>>> surely the
>>>>>>>>> personal pronoun AT, 'you'. MARAH is 'bitter'. Such is also the
>>>>>>>>> relationship between GEBER and GBER-ET.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is the evidence for these assertions?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is your evidence for equating what has traditionally been 
>>>>>>>> analysed
>>>>>>>> as gender marking to actually be speech-participant marking? I've
>>>>>>>> already demonstrated that your methodology is without linguistic
>>>>>>>> support, viz. 1) that you eschew any essential phonemic analysis 
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> allows you to basically propose anything you want to as it is 
>>>>>>>> then up to
>>>>>>>> the imagination and so is without any constraints; and 2) your
>>>>>>>> contention -- again without adduced evidence -- that BH has only a
>>>>>>>> single vowel is linguistically impossible. These two issues lead
>>>>>>>> ultimately to a fanciful analysis which no one is taking seriously.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You would do well to read monographs which relate to your above
>>>>>>>> assertions such as the following:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Corbett, Greville G. 1991. Gender. Cambridge Textbooks in 
>>>>>>>> Linguistics.
>>>>>>>> Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Corbett, Greville G. 2000. Number. Cambridge Textbooks in 
>>>>>>>> Linguistics.
>>>>>>>> Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Siewierska, Anna. 2004. Person. Cambridge Textbooks in Linguistics.
>>>>>>>> Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> David Kummerow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> b-hebrew mailing list
>>>>>>>> b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
> 
> 




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