[b-hebrew] labo' lepaney and Gen 6:13

B. M. Rocine brocine at twcny.rr.com
Sun Apr 22 13:28:16 EDT 2007


Hi Karl,

I see what you are saying.   I noticed the two Psalm vv. when I did my 
research.  I will concede the grammatical technicality you point out. 

As for "something in the text that grammar by itself does not support":  
I don't know why we should limit ourselves to grammar alone.  My query 
relates essentially to semantics in this thread, not grammar.  I thought 
we might explore the meaning and use of the idiom _labo' lipney_.  (I 
thought semantics was your special passion.)

I just don't see that your grammatical issue makes any difference in the 
two psalms you have cited.  In fact, the two psalms you cite are 
excellent examples where the structure _labo' lipney_ creates an 
audience-scene.  Do you also see what I am saying--that, in view of the 
15-20 extant uses of this structure _labo' lipney_, Gen 6:13 needs to be 
understood as an audience-scene?

I any case, I am not stretching Gen 6:13 as far as you might think to 
assert that _kets kol basar ba' lepanay_ refers to an emergency coming 
to attention of YHWH rather than the idea to destroy coming to YHWH.  At 
least one New Testament writer put Noah's flood in terms of salvation 
rather than condemnation only.  1 Peter 3:20  "...In it [the ark] only a 
few people, eight in all, were _saved through water_."

Ubiquitously in the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, floods of water are a 
means of salvation as well as judgment.  See the Song of Moses:  Exodus 
15:1-8 

See also:

Psalm 77:16-20  The waters saw you, O God, the waters saw you and 
writhed; the very depths were convulsed.  17 The clouds poured down 
water, the skies resounded with thunder; your arrows flashed back and 
forth.  18 Your thunder was heard in the whirlwind, your lightning lit 
up the world; the earth trembled and quaked.  19 Your path led through 
the sea, your way through the mighty waters, though your footprints were 
not seen.  20 You led your people like a flock by the hand of Moses and 
Aaron.

See also a prophecy:

Isaiah 28:2-6  See, the Lord has one who is powerful and strong. Like a 
hailstorm and a destructive wind, like a driving rain and a flooding 
downpour, he will throw it forcefully to the ground.  3 That wreath, the 
pride of Ephraim's drunkards, will be trampled underfoot.  4 That fading 
flower, his glorious beauty, set on the head of a fertile valley, will 
be like a fig ripe before harvest-- as soon as someone sees it and takes 
it in his hand, he swallows it.  5 In that day the LORD Almighty will be 
a glorious crown, a beautiful wreath for the remnant of his people.  6 
He will be a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment, a source of 
strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

This following depicts the "creation flood" as a means of salvation:

Isaiah 51:9-11  Awake, awake! Clothe yourself with strength, O arm of 
the LORD; awake, as in days gone by, as in generations of old. Was it 
not you who cut Rahab to pieces, who pierced that monster through?  10 
Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who 
made a road in the depths of the sea so that the redeemed might cross 
over?  11 The ransomed of the LORD will return. They will enter Zion 
with singing; everlasting joy will crown their heads. Gladness and joy 
will overtake them, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.

We could go on for a while, but there certainly is abundant evidence 
that Biblical floods save as well as destroy.  I think Noah's flood 
should be appreciated in this light.

Some on the list may wonder how my assertion that _labo' lipney_ would 
impact translation if it is understood as expressing an audience-scene.  
See the NIV, the TNK, and my own translation below.

NIV Gen 6:13  So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all 
people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.

WRONG!

TNK  Gen 6:13  God said to Noah, "I have decided to put an end to all 
flesh, for the earth is filled with lawlessness because of them

WRONG!

BETTER:

So God said to Noah, "I realize the end of all life approaches because 
the earth is filled with violence from them..."

Shalom,
Bryan

K Randolph wrote:
> Bryon:
>
> I think you are confusing grammar with literary style.
>
> While it is true that the examples in Psalms are human caused, that is
> a literary stylistic effect that puts it grammatically as an inanimate
> event that goes before God's face. In the grammatical sense,
> therefore, it is the same as Genesis 6.
>
> I think you are reading something in the text that grammar by itself
> does not support.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> On 4/20/07, B. M. Rocine <brocine at twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>   
>> Hi Karl,
>>
>> How about if we exercise just a bit of imagination in reading the poetry
>> and see the human supplicants that come as "required attachments" to the
>> groan and the petition?
>>
>> I believe the technical name for the figures in verses you quote is
>> metonymy.  The two vv. in Psa are very much about gaining an audience
>> with YHWH.
>>
>> Shalom,
>> Bryan
>>
>> K Randolph wrote:
>>     
>>> In Psalm 79:11 the subject is a groan, in 88:2 it is my petition.
>>>
>>> Karl W. Randolph.
>>>       
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>   

-- 
B.M. Rocine
Living Word Church
6101 Court St. Rd.
Syracuse, NY 13206
W:  (315) 437-6744




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