[b-hebrew] New or Renwed - END OF THREAD

Yigal Levin leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il
Sun Apr 15 01:17:41 EDT 2007

Dear All,

This thread, and its various sub-threads, has become much more theological 
than linguistic. Sometimes our understanding of the language of the Tanakh 
effects or is effected by our religious beliefs, but I think that our 
positions are now clear, and any continuation of this discussion is outside 
the limits of this list. This thread is hereby CLOSED.

Yigal Levin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <davidfentonism at aim.com>
To: <yohanan.bin.dawidh at gmail.com>
Cc: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ha'satan - (Sub-category of "New or Renewed 
inJeremiah 31:31?")

> Literarily speaking, if I may, I lean more to Shoshana's view because just 
> as in the Garden, at har Sinai, Moshe delayed providentially so the people 
> would reveal or expose their hearts which some/many did by worshipping the 
> golden calf. Later, the delay in the release of water from the rock after 
> Moshe struck it exposed his heart. Mashiach's delay in returning exposes 
> the heart of the apostates.
> David F.
>    ----------------------------
> Gal. 27-29: For as many as have had a tevilah into Moshiach have clothed 
> yourselves with Moshiach. There is not Yehudi nor Yevani (Greek), there is 
> not eved (servant) nor ben chorin (freedman), there is not zachar (male) 
> nor nekevah (female), for you are all echad in Moshiach Yehoshua/Yeshua. 
> And, if you belong to Moshiach (YESHAYAH 53:10), then you are of the ZERAH 
> of Avraham Avinu, you are yoreshim (heirs) according to the havtachah 
> (promise).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yohanan.bin.dawidh at gmail.com
> Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ha'satan - (Sub-category of "New or Renewed in 
> Jeremiah 31:31?")
>  Shavu'a Tov Shoshanna,
> I will make sure to transliterate for you next time, or merely e-mail you
> the references. Our idea on what angels are, and the fact that they cease 
> to
> exist when their job is finished is similar; however, I disagree with the
> concept that HaSatan's job is to tempt man away from obedience to G-d. It
> think that HaSatan is more so the anger of Y___ , which is kindled against
> those who have already sinned against Y___.
> The only reference to the idea that you present that I find within the
> Miq'ra is in Sefer Iyyov, but even here Iyyov credits his ills, and etc. 
> to
> Y___.
> Yohanan bin-Dawidh
> On 4/14/07, Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk at concentric.net> wrote:
>> Dear Yochanan, my email program is not configured to read Hebrew, so
>> most of this email is lost on me, in the future, just send me the
>> references to the quotes, or transliterate for me, please.
>> So I don't know if we agree or dsagree that HaSatan is an angel who
>> has a job to do, as each angel does, when their job(s) are done, they
>> cease to exist, and HaSatan's job is to tempt man away from obedience
>> to G-d, in order that man has an opportunity to choose G-d, and
>> thereby elevate his soul.
>> Anyway, when Mashiach comes, there will be no more need for this
>> "testing" (and HaSatan will cease to exist because his job will be
>> finished, that is what happens to angels), that is what the "new"
>> covenant refers to.
>> Shoshanna
>> >Dear Shoshanna,
>> >
>> >In Sefer Bamidbar (Numbers) chapter 22 verse 22 we read
>> >×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¥×ó÷…×(r)-×ê÷…×£
>> >×ê÷±×ú÷¼×î÷¥×ô×ù, ×õ÷º÷¥×ô-×î×ï÷¼×ú÷µ×ö÷ƒ ×î×ï÷º×ê,
>> >×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¥×÷ƒ×ô÷…׶÷º÷µ×ë ×û÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷…×ö÷ƒ ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î
>> >×ë÷º÷…×ì÷º÷×(r)÷×ö÷ƒ,
>> >×ú÷ƒ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü ×ú×ï÷¼; ×ï÷ƒ×î×ï÷º×ê ×(r)÷¼×õ÷µ×ë
>> >×¢÷…×ú-×ê÷¾×÷¼×Ý×ï÷¼, ×ï÷º×(c)×Å÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×ô ×Ý÷ƒ×¢÷½×(r)÷½×ô×ï
>> >×¢÷¥×û÷º×ï÷¼ which
>> >suggests that  in this situation it was ×û÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷…×ö÷ƒ
>> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î acting as ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü,
>> >right? Then in Sefer Shemu'el Alef (1 Samuel) 16:14 we read
>> >×ï÷º×ë÷¥×¢÷¾×÷…ׁ÷º×ï÷º ×(r)×ï÷º×ó÷…-×(r)÷½×¢÷½×î,
>> >×û÷µ×ê÷µ× ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î that clearly denotes that an "evil spirit
>> >from YHWH" terrified
>> >Sha'ul, and not merely "an evil spirit". Also in Sefer Divrei Hayammim
>> Alef
>> >(1 Chronicles) 21:1 we read ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷…×¢÷¾×û÷¼×ì ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü,
>> >×¢÷…×ú-×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú; ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷½×°÷×,
>> >×ê÷×-×ì÷º÷½×ï÷¥×ô×ì, ×ú÷¥×û÷ƒ×Ý×ï÷¼×, ×ê÷×-×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú
>> >but in the same account in Sefer
>> >Shemu'el Bet (2 Samuel) 24:1 we read ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¼×°÷×£,
>> >×ê÷…×£-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, ×ú÷…×ó÷¾×(r)×ï÷¼×,
>> >×ë÷º÷ƒ×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú; ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷½×°÷× ×ê÷×-×ì÷º÷½×ï÷¥×ì
>> >×ë÷º÷½×î÷×ù ×ú÷µ×ê×û÷¼×(r), ×ú÷µ×ö÷ƒ ×û÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×î
>> >×ê÷×-×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú
>> >×ï÷ƒ×ê÷×-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷º×ì÷½×î , suggesting that the ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü of
>> >the account in Divrei
>> >Hayammim is ×ê÷…×£-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, much like it was in Sefer Bamidbar
>> >chapter 22.
>> >
>> >All the above seem to point to ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü being a servant of
>> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î working on
>> >His side against "evil men". So what else does the Miq'ra state about 
>> >the
>> >concept, or personality of ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü?
>> >
>> >We read in Sefer Zekaryah chapter 3 ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷…×(r)÷ƒ×ê÷µ×Ý÷¥×ô,
>> >×ê÷×-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷¼×(c)×Å÷ª×¢÷… ×î÷…×õ÷º÷¼×î÷µ×ü
>> >×î÷…×í÷º÷½×ì×ï÷¼×ú, ×¢÷¼×û÷µ×ì, ×ú÷¥×§÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×ô ×û÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷…×ö÷ƒ
>> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î; ×ï÷ƒ×î÷…×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü ×¢÷¼×û÷µ×ì
>> >×¢÷…×ú-×ô÷ƒ×û÷¥×ô×Ý×ï÷¼,
>> >×ú÷ƒ×(c)×Ç÷¥×ò÷ƒ×Ý×ï÷¼ and then   ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¼×ê×û÷×(r) ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î
>> >×ê÷×ú-×î÷…×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü, ×ô÷¥×í÷ƒ×¢÷…×(r) ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î ×ë÷º÷ƒ×ö÷½
>> >×î÷…×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü, ×ï÷ƒ×ô÷¥×í÷ƒ×¢÷…×(r) ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î ×ë÷º÷ƒ×ö÷½,
>> >×î÷…×ë÷º÷¼×ó÷µ×(r) ×ë÷º÷¥×ô×(r)×ï÷º×(c)×Å÷½×ú÷½÷¥×ù; ×î÷¾×ú×ï÷¼×ê ×ñ÷×î
>> >×ê×ï÷º×ì,
>> >×û÷ª×¶÷º÷½×ú ×û÷µ×ê÷µ×(c)×Å which to some would appear as if
>> >×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü is the enemy of ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î,
>> >or at least opposes Him, but in truth the answer lies in the phrase
>> >×ï÷¥×ô×î×ï÷¼×(c)×Å÷ª×¢÷…,
>> >×î÷½×ô÷½×î ×ú÷½×ë÷ª×(c)×Å ×ë÷º÷ƒ×í÷½×ì÷¥×ô×ù ׶×ï÷¼×ê÷¥×ô×ù;
>> >×ï÷ƒ×¢÷¼×û÷µ×ì, ×ú÷¥×§÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×ô ×î÷…×û÷º÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷½×ö÷ƒ, which when
>> >linked with the idea of ×ï÷…×Ý÷º÷ƒ×î÷¥×ô ×õ÷…×ò÷º÷½×û÷µ×ê
>> >×õ÷º÷ª×ú÷º÷½×Ý×ï÷º, ×ï÷º×õ÷ƒ×ë÷×í÷×ì ×¢÷¥×ì÷º÷¥×ô×ù
>> >×õ÷º÷½×ú-׶÷¥×ì÷ƒ×ß÷¼×÷µ×ô×Ý×ï÷º; ×ï÷…×Ý÷º÷½×ë÷×ú ×õ÷º÷×¢÷½×ú÷×î
>> >×õ÷º÷ª×ú÷º÷½×Ý×ï÷º, ×ï÷…×¢÷¾×ï'Äç÷¼×Ý÷µ×Ý×ï÷º ×õ÷º÷½×(r)×ï÷º×ó÷…
>> >×ô÷¥×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ê÷ª×Ý×ï÷º found in Sefer Yishayahu (Isaiah) chapter 64
>> >verse 5 seem to
>> >show us that either Israel or Yohoshu'a had sinned.
>> >
>> >And what about in Sefer Iyyov (Job) where it appears that 
>> >×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü
>> is
>> >tempting Iyyov? Through out this text we see everything attributed to
>> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×îby Iyyov, and never to the idea of a
>> >×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü, and we see that when the ×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü is talking
>> >to ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î that it is
>> >made clear that the ×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü can do nothing without the
>> >permission of ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î,
>> >right?
>> >
>> >I think it is self-evident in the Miq'ra that the idea of
>> >×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü is one of
>> >a messenger of ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, or ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, Himself, acting as an
>> >advesary to wicked
>> >humans, or a test unto humans to see if they will remain loyal to
>> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î,
>> >never as an evil-being in opposition to ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î and out to bring
>> down the
>> >fall of humankind, which in my humble opinion is a pagan idea.
>> >
>> >Yohanan bin-Dawidh×ô÷ƒ
>> >_______________________________________________
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>> >b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
>> >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
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