[b-hebrew] Ha'satan - (Sub-category of "New or Renewed in Jeremiah 31:31?")

davidfentonism at aim.com davidfentonism at aim.com
Sun Apr 15 01:09:50 EDT 2007


 Literarily speaking, if I may, I lean more to Shoshana's view because just as in the Garden, at har Sinai, Moshe delayed providentially so the people would reveal or expose their hearts which some/many did by worshipping the golden calf. Later, the delay in the release of water from the rock after Moshe struck it exposed his heart. Mashiach's delay in returning exposes the heart of the apostates.
 
 David F.
    ----------------------------
 Gal. 27-29: For as many as have had a tevilah into Moshiach have clothed yourselves with Moshiach. There is not Yehudi nor Yevani (Greek), there is not eved (servant) nor ben chorin (freedman), there is not zachar (male) nor nekevah (female), for you are all echad in Moshiach Yehoshua/Yeshua. And, if you belong to Moshiach (YESHAYAH 53:10), then you are of the ZERAH of Avraham Avinu, you are yoreshim (heirs) according to the havtachah (promise).   
 -----Original Message-----
 From: yohanan.bin.dawidh at gmail.com
 Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
 Sent: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ha'satan - (Sub-category of "New or Renewed in Jeremiah 31:31?")
 
  Shavu'a Tov Shoshanna,

I will make sure to transliterate for you next time, or merely e-mail you
the references. Our idea on what angels are, and the fact that they cease to
exist when their job is finished is similar; however, I disagree with the
concept that HaSatan's job is to tempt man away from obedience to G-d. It
think that HaSatan is more so the anger of Y___ , which is kindled against
those who have already sinned against Y___.

The only reference to the idea that you present that I find within the
Miq'ra is in Sefer Iyyov, but even here Iyyov credits his ills, and etc. to
Y___.

Yohanan bin-Dawidh


On 4/14/07, Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk at concentric.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Yochanan, my email program is not configured to read Hebrew, so
> most of this email is lost on me, in the future, just send me the
> references to the quotes, or transliterate for me, please.
>
> So I don't know if we agree or dsagree that HaSatan is an angel who
> has a job to do, as each angel does, when their job(s) are done, they
> cease to exist, and HaSatan's job is to tempt man away from obedience
> to G-d, in order that man has an opportunity to choose G-d, and
> thereby elevate his soul.
>
> Anyway, when Mashiach comes, there will be no more need for this
> "testing" (and HaSatan will cease to exist because his job will be
> finished, that is what happens to angels), that is what the "new"
> covenant refers to.
>
> Shoshanna
>
>
> >Dear Shoshanna,
> >
> >In Sefer Bamidbar (Numbers) chapter 22 verse 22 we read
> >×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¥×ó÷…×(r)-×ê÷…×£
> >×ê÷±×ú÷¼×î÷¥×ô×ù, ×õ÷º÷¥×ô-×î×ï÷¼×ú÷µ×ö÷ƒ ×î×ï÷º×ê,
> >×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¥×÷ƒ×ô÷…׶÷º÷µ×ë ×û÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷…×ö÷ƒ ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î
> >×ë÷º÷…×ì÷º÷×(r)÷×ö÷ƒ,
> >×ú÷ƒ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü ×ú×ï÷¼; ×ï÷ƒ×î×ï÷º×ê ×(r)÷¼×õ÷µ×ë
> >×¢÷…×ú-×ê÷¾×÷¼×Ý×ï÷¼, ×ï÷º×(c)×Å÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×ô ×Ý÷ƒ×¢÷½×(r)÷½×ô×ï
> >×¢÷¥×û÷º×ï÷¼ which
> >suggests that  in this situation it was ×û÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷…×ö÷ƒ
> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î acting as ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü,
> >right? Then in Sefer Shemu'el Alef (1 Samuel) 16:14 we read
> >×ï÷º×ë÷¥×¢÷¾×÷…ׁ÷º×ï÷º ×(r)×ï÷º×ó÷…-×(r)÷½×¢÷½×î,
> >×û÷µ×ê÷µ× ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î that clearly denotes that an "evil spirit
> >from YHWH" terrified
> >Sha'ul, and not merely "an evil spirit". Also in Sefer Divrei Hayammim
> Alef
> >(1 Chronicles) 21:1 we read ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷…×¢÷¾×û÷¼×ì ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü,
> >×¢÷…×ú-×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú; ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷½×°÷×,
> >×ê÷×-×ì÷º÷½×ï÷¥×ô×ì, ×ú÷¥×û÷ƒ×Ý×ï÷¼×, ×ê÷×-×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú
> >but in the same account in Sefer
> >Shemu'el Bet (2 Samuel) 24:1 we read ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¼×°÷×£,
> >×ê÷…×£-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, ×ú÷…×ó÷¾×(r)×ï÷¼×,
> >×ë÷º÷ƒ×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú; ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷½×°÷× ×ê÷×-×ì÷º÷½×ï÷¥×ì
> >×ë÷º÷½×î÷×ù ×ú÷µ×ê×û÷¼×(r), ×ú÷µ×ö÷ƒ ×û÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×î
> >×ê÷×-×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú
> >×ï÷ƒ×ê÷×-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷º×ì÷½×î , suggesting that the ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü of
> >the account in Divrei
> >Hayammim is ×ê÷…×£-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, much like it was in Sefer Bamidbar
> >chapter 22.
> >
> >All the above seem to point to ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü being a servant of
> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î working on
> >His side against "evil men". So what else does the Miq'ra state about the
> >concept, or personality of ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü?
> >
> >We read in Sefer Zekaryah chapter 3 ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷…×(r)÷ƒ×ê÷µ×Ý÷¥×ô,
> >×ê÷×-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷¼×(c)×Å÷ª×¢÷… ×î÷…×õ÷º÷¼×î÷µ×ü
> >×î÷…×í÷º÷½×ì×ï÷¼×ú, ×¢÷¼×û÷µ×ì, ×ú÷¥×§÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×ô ×û÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷…×ö÷ƒ
> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î; ×ï÷ƒ×î÷…×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü ×¢÷¼×û÷µ×ì
> >×¢÷…×ú-×ô÷ƒ×û÷¥×ô×Ý×ï÷¼,
> >×ú÷ƒ×(c)×Ç÷¥×ò÷ƒ×Ý×ï÷¼ and then   ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¼×ê×û÷×(r) ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î
> >×ê÷×ú-×î÷…×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü, ×ô÷¥×í÷ƒ×¢÷…×(r) ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î ×ë÷º÷ƒ×ö÷½
> >×î÷…×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü, ×ï÷ƒ×ô÷¥×í÷ƒ×¢÷…×(r) ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î ×ë÷º÷ƒ×ö÷½,
> >×î÷…×ë÷º÷¼×ó÷µ×(r) ×ë÷º÷¥×ô×(r)×ï÷º×(c)×Å÷½×ú÷½÷¥×ù; ×î÷¾×ú×ï÷¼×ê ×ñ÷×î
> >×ê×ï÷º×ì,
> >×û÷ª×¶÷º÷½×ú ×û÷µ×ê÷µ×(c)×Å which to some would appear as if
> >×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü is the enemy of ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î,
> >or at least opposes Him, but in truth the answer lies in the phrase
> >×ï÷¥×ô×î×ï÷¼×(c)×Å÷ª×¢÷…,
> >×î÷½×ô÷½×î ×ú÷½×ë÷ª×(c)×Å ×ë÷º÷ƒ×í÷½×ì÷¥×ô×ù ׶×ï÷¼×ê÷¥×ô×ù;
> >×ï÷ƒ×¢÷¼×û÷µ×ì, ×ú÷¥×§÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×ô ×î÷…×û÷º÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷½×ö÷ƒ, which when
> >linked with the idea of ×ï÷…×Ý÷º÷ƒ×î÷¥×ô ×õ÷…×ò÷º÷½×û÷µ×ê
> >×õ÷º÷ª×ú÷º÷½×Ý×ï÷º, ×ï÷º×õ÷ƒ×ë÷×í÷×ì ×¢÷¥×ì÷º÷¥×ô×ù
> >×õ÷º÷½×ú-׶÷¥×ì÷ƒ×ß÷¼×÷µ×ô×Ý×ï÷º; ×ï÷…×Ý÷º÷½×ë÷×ú ×õ÷º÷×¢÷½×ú÷×î
> >×õ÷º÷ª×ú÷º÷½×Ý×ï÷º, ×ï÷…×¢÷¾×ï'Äç÷¼×Ý÷µ×Ý×ï÷º ×õ÷º÷½×(r)×ï÷º×ó÷…
> >×ô÷¥×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ê÷ª×Ý×ï÷º found in Sefer Yishayahu (Isaiah) chapter 64
> >verse 5 seem to
> >show us that either Israel or Yohoshu'a had sinned.
> >
> >And what about in Sefer Iyyov (Job) where it appears that ×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü
> is
> >tempting Iyyov? Through out this text we see everything attributed to
> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×îby Iyyov, and never to the idea of a
> >×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü, and we see that when the ×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü is talking
> >to ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î that it is
> >made clear that the ×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü can do nothing without the
> >permission of ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î,
> >right?
> >
> >I think it is self-evident in the Miq'ra that the idea of
> >×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü is one of
> >a messenger of ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, or ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, Himself, acting as an
> >advesary to wicked
> >humans, or a test unto humans to see if they will remain loyal to
> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î,
> >never as an evil-being in opposition to ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î and out to bring
> down the
> >fall of humankind, which in my humble opinion is a pagan idea.
> >
> >Yohanan bin-Dawidh×ô÷ƒ
> >_______________________________________________
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> >b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>
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