[b-hebrew] Dying, you will die Gen 2:17
hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Wed Apr 11 10:33:35 EDT 2007
Shoshanna Walker wrote:
> Ok, thank you very much, the Torah describes the covenant that G-d
> made with Abraham, and with Isaac, and with Jacob, and with Moshe,
> and with Am Yisrael, so what is your point?
HH: I guess my point here is that God made more than one covenant. The
Abrahamic covenant and the Mosaic covenant are related, of course, but
they are two separate covenants.
> That you don't accept,
> and are not obligated to accept, G-d's covenant with Am Yisrael, and
> all of our obligations to G-d, and G-d's CONDITIONAL promises to us,
> and no one, not even G-d, says that G-d perfects the universe
HH: Right, God's plan for restoring the world is a process through
history. God does not always work the same way in every age.
> And all of Torah tells us that it is OUR responsibility to
> play a HUGE PART in perfecting the universe - did you know that -
> that the perfection of the universe depends on us observing the
> Mitzvot of the Torah - that we have a huge and awesome
> responsibility, and that when we fail, EVERYONE - the entire
> universe- suffers- did you know that?
HH: When you say "our" and "we," you may be referring to the Jews, but
of course we are all important in God's eyes. He created us all. What
each of us does is important for our own lives and for the lives of
those around us. God is able to use even the failures of human beings to
carry out His plans, but I agree with you that our sins ultimately have
ripple effects on the whole world that we live in. And yes, the actions
of the Jews are very important for the completion of God's plans for the
> And you are not obligated to be bound by G-d's covenant with us?
HH: Well, actually I am obligated to be bound by God's covenant with the
Jews, the new covenant. This covenant, spoken of in Jer 31:31, is also
with the Jews, but the main part of the nation has not yet entered into
> Obviously. You are not obligated to be bound by G-d's covenant with
> us. But not because Jesus said so and said he was making a new
> covenant, because what Jesus said is irrelevant because it is not
> what G-d the Creator of the Universe said.
HH: That's what you think.
> But because you weren't
> there at Har Sinai, receiving the Revelation and agreeing to its
> conditions, in the first place.
HH: Right, the old covenant was given to the Jews, and one shared in it
by essentially becoming a Jew.
> So what are you trying to teach me, here? Some Christians may be our
> friends, many have been our enemies, and have killed and utterly
> destroyed entire families and communities, exiled, persecuted us in
> the name of your idolatrous man-G-d, Jesus.
HH: Perhaps some of them were Christians. But they were not acting like
Christians, for the NT instructs us to be loving to Jews. Christians
believe that Jesus is the Messiah promised in the OT. They also believe
other things about him, which are revealed in the NT. The leading
Jewish authorities in Jesus' day rejected Jesus' claims. You agree with
> So what do you want me
> to say here and now - thank YOU, Harold, for being my friend - as
> long as I agree that I don't mind that you pervert and try to take MY
> Torah to be your own?
HH: I guess I want you to realize that I am not against you. You are a
neighbor, and I am to love my neighbor as myself. I am even instructed
to love my enemies. Secondly, Jews disagree over the interpretation of
many biblical passages, so the fact that I may disagree with you about
interpretations does not necessarily mean that I pervert the Torah.
Certainly I have no intention of doing that. I am under God's authority
and will be judged if I pervert his word. The fact that I use the Torah
does not in any way diminish your right to use the Torah. I do not use
it the same way that you do, since I do not consider myself to be under
the Mosaic law.
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