[b-hebrew] Dying, you will die Gen 2:17

Harold Holmyard hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Wed Apr 11 10:33:35 EDT 2007

Shoshanna Walker wrote:
> Ok, thank you very much, the Torah describes the covenant that G-d 
> made with  Abraham, and with Isaac, and with Jacob, and with Moshe, 
> and with Am Yisrael, so what is your point?

HH: I guess my point here is that God made more than one covenant. The 
Abrahamic covenant and the Mosaic covenant are related, of course, but 
they are two separate covenants.

>   That you don't accept, 
> and are not obligated to accept, G-d's covenant with Am Yisrael, and 
> all of our obligations to G-d, and G-d's CONDITIONAL promises to us, 
> and no one, not even G-d, says that G-d perfects the universe 
> overnight.

HH: Right, God's plan for restoring the world is a process through 
history. God does not always work the same way in every age.

>  And all of Torah tells us that it is OUR responsibility to 
> play a HUGE PART in perfecting the universe - did you know that - 
> that the perfection of the universe depends on us observing the 
> Mitzvot of the Torah - that we have a huge and awesome 
> responsibility, and that when we fail, EVERYONE - the entire 
> universe- suffers- did you know that?

HH: When you say "our" and "we," you may be referring to the Jews, but 
of course we are all important in God's eyes. He created us all. What 
each of us does is important for our own lives and for the lives of 
those around us. God is able to use even the failures of human beings to 
carry out His plans, but I agree with you that our sins ultimately have 
ripple effects on the whole world that we live in. And yes, the actions 
of the Jews are very important for the completion of God's plans for the 

> And you are not obligated to be bound by G-d's covenant with us?

HH: Well, actually I am obligated to be bound by God's covenant with the 
Jews, the new covenant. This covenant, spoken of in Jer 31:31, is also 
with the Jews, but the main part of the nation has not yet entered into 
that covenant.
> Obviously.  You are not obligated to be bound by G-d's covenant with 
> us.  But not because Jesus said so and said he was making a new 
> covenant, because what Jesus said is irrelevant because it is not 
> what G-d the Creator of the Universe said.

HH: That's what you think.

>   But because you weren't 
> there at Har Sinai, receiving the Revelation and agreeing to its 
> conditions, in the first place.

HH: Right, the old covenant was given to the Jews, and one shared in it 
by essentially becoming a Jew.

> So what are you trying to teach me, here?  Some Christians may be our 
> friends, many have been our enemies, and have killed and utterly 
> destroyed entire families and communities, exiled, persecuted us in 
> the name of your idolatrous man-G-d, Jesus.

HH: Perhaps some of them were Christians. But they were not acting like 
Christians, for the NT instructs us to be loving to Jews. Christians 
believe that Jesus is the Messiah promised in the OT. They also believe 
other things about him, which are revealed in the NT.  The leading 
Jewish authorities in Jesus' day rejected Jesus' claims. You agree with 

>   So what do you want me 
> to say here and now - thank YOU, Harold, for being my friend - as 
> long as I agree that I don't mind that you pervert and try to take MY 
> Torah to be your own?

HH: I guess I want you to realize that I am not against you. You are a 
neighbor, and I am to love my neighbor as myself.  I am even instructed 
to love my enemies. Secondly, Jews disagree over the interpretation of 
many biblical passages, so the fact that I may disagree with you about 
interpretations does not necessarily mean that I pervert the Torah. 
Certainly I have no intention of doing that. I am under God's authority 
and will be judged if I pervert his word. The fact that I use the Torah 
does not in any way diminish your right to use the Torah.  I do not use 
it the same way that you do, since I do not consider myself to be under 
the Mosaic law.

Harold Holmyard

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