[b-hebrew] The Pesach prohibition - baked, not leavened bread

Shoshanna Walker rosewalk at concentric.net
Sun Sep 24 21:41:43 EDT 2006

I did say.  It's fermentation.  Chometz referring to wine refers to 
grapes that have fermented, vs. grape juice, which is also called 

This is the old language, and it's older in the Chumash than in 
Hosea.  Chazal certainly knew what the Pesach prohibition is, better 
than you.

When you quote verses out of context you don't get the true meaning. 
And they aren't all supposed to be taken literally.  A lot of what 
the Prophets say is allegory.  "The inciter - the evil inclination - 
devises its plan and rests until the time is ripe to bring it to 

Rashi:  from the kneading the dough until it leavens From the time he 
thinks of the evil in his heart, how he will do it, he rests and 
sleeps until morning, when he can do it, just as the baker rests from 
the kneading of the dough until it leavens, when he can bake it. And 
so it is stated in Micah (2: 1): "Woe is to those who plan iniquity 
and work evil on their beds; when the morning lights up, they do it."

Re dough - it takes 18 minutes for flour to start to ferment from the 
moment it is mixed with water.  Mix it with water, then knead it - 
and you have a certain amount of time before the fermentation process 
begins.  Unless you put it in a hot oven and begin to bake it before 
that process begins.  It's really very simple, unless you start to 
make new things up and then try to reconcile your imagination with 


Shoshanna, you're talking of new words. Stick to the old language.
If hometz meant vinegar in the time the Numbers was written, then how could
the phrase "hometz wine" appear? You don't say, "vinegar wine." It is
"heating wine" (strong drink). Vinegar is a derivative meaning.
Any wine appears in fermentation. Is there any language which has a turn
"fermented wine"?
I suppose, as a woman, you bake once in a while. How about Hos7:4? Does a
dough leaven in hot oven, or is it rather baked?

Vadim Cherny

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shoshanna Walker" <rosewalk at concentric.net>
To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 7:02 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] The Pesach prohibition - baked, not leavened bread

> The word chametz refers to fermentation, not hot and pressed.
> Chometz is vinegar
> Chamutzim are pickles
> Chamutz is sour
> Etc.
> "hometz" wine - is just simply grapes that have fermented, ie; wine,
> vs. grape juice.
> Why do so many people think that they need to "improve" on, or change
> the real meanings of the Torah???
> Do you think it makes you smart to make new things up?
> Shoshanna
> The hametz prohibited on Pesach seems to mean baked bread. The idea
> of leavening is derivative because leaven was often added before
> baking.
> The word hametz consists of root cells hm and mtz, hot and pressed.
> Confirms Hos7:4: bad baker doesn't watch the dough from kneading
> until it becomes hmtz in the hot oven. Dough is baked in the oven,
> not leavened.
> Nazirite should abstain from hometz wine. Hometz, presumably, is
> something that makes something else hametz. Wine - unlike beer - was
> not used for leavening the bread. Like another word for wine, hmr
> (hm-mr, hot and rising), hmtz here means "hot and pressing", and
> refers to agitating effect of wine. That makes sense of the
> prohibition.
> Hometz similarly means "violent" in Ps71:4, certainly not "leavened."
> The difference between Lev7:12 and 7:13 is now clear: halot matzot
> (pressed cakes) could be oiled, but halot lehem hametz (baked bread)
> are soft and break when oiled.
> Reading hametz as "baked" correlates with the tradition. Hebrews in
> Egypt prepared the last bread at least as usual, more probably - as
> festive bread to accompany the meat sacrifice. They had no reason to
> prepare the dough without leaven. They left in haste, and didn't have
> time to bake the bread. They ate the  pressed sun-dried cakes, a
> normal food even now in traditional Egyptian villages.
> Please share your opinions about that suggestion. You can read it in
> more details at http://vadimcherny.org/judaism/custom_pesach.htm
> Vadim Cherny
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