[b-hebrew] Mashiach

Shoshanna Walker rosewalk at concentric.net
Fri Sep 8 18:01:01 EDT 2006

But that doesn't prove that it really happened.


HH: But doctors do not heal people supernaturally, so we don't know what
that might involve for someone who did. And the NT quotes this text of
Jesus healing people supernaturally:

Matt. 8:16  When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were
brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all
the sick.
Matt. 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet
Isaiah:  ’ÄúHe took up our infirmities and carried our diseases.’Äù

HH: The fact that we cannot explain exactly how someone could carry
diseases without becoming sick does not matter because we cannot explain
how a person can heal supernaturally either. One incident indicates that
power went out of Jesus in a healing:

Luke 8:44 She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak, and
immediately her bleeding stopped.
Luke 8:45   ’ÄúWho touched me?’Äù Jesus asked.  When they all denied it,
Peter said,  ’ÄúMaster, the people are crowding and pressing against you.’Äù
Luke 8:46  But Jesus said,  ’ÄúSomeone touched me; I know that power has
gone out from me.’Äù

HH: So perhaps Jesus carried sicknesses in the sense that they drained
him of some power.

Harold Holmyard

>>[Steve Miller] If so, then the nations are the ones speaking. (Some 
>>problems with that.) But then you say later that Isaiah is the one 
>YM: I say that both interpretations have been offered, and this 
>isdefinitely the case.
>> [Steve Miller] "clear indicator" & "clear ref"???? "land of the 
>>living" is used many times in Tanach, and it means just what it 
>>says. It never means the land of Israel. To be cut off from the 
>>land of the living is to die.>
>YM: Here are the references that I find (not having a proper 
>Hebrewconcordance) for "land of the living" in the Tanakh.
>"Land of the Living"×ê×®×* ×ó×ô×ô×ù [[ )RC XYYM ]]Psalm 27:13; 
>52:7Isaiah 53:8Jeremiah 11:19Ezekiel 26:20; 32:23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 32
>×ê×®×* ×î×ó×ô×ô×ù [[ )RC HCYYM ]]Job 28:13Psalm 142:5Isaiah 38:11
>×ê׮׶×ïׁ ×î×ó×ô×ô×ù [[ )RCWT HCYYM ]]Psalm 116:9
>Reading through the references, I would have to agree with you 
>that"land of the living" refers to this world (as opposed to the 
>grave).However, the exile of the people of Israel from the land 
>wasmetaphorical death for the people, in addition to the fact 
>thatmultitudes were killed during the battles that led up to exile. 
>To me,this is a clear metaphor for Israel's exile, but I can see why 
>itwould not be so clear to you -- even though it is in line with 
>whatthe prophets said.
>>[Steve Miller] I agree that the speaker is Isaiah in 53:1-10, 
>>mostly speaking on behalf of Israel in general, but in 53:1 on 
>>behalf of the prophets. This is the straightforward way to 
>>understand it, and I don't know of any problem with it. But you 
>>can't have it both ways. If you say that this chapter is the 
>>gentile nations' remorse over Israel, then you must have the 
>>speaker be the gentile nations and not Isaiah.> The gentile kings 
>>cannot be the speaker. In the whole Tanach, since Israel became a 
>>nation, have the gentiles ever said anything intelligent about God? 
>>And here they know the "arm of the Lord"? They know that it 
>>"pleased Jehovah to bruise him."?
>It says that the arm of HaShem was revealed to them, and this 
>ishighly possibly refering to the goyische kings, since it is 
>refered toin a previous verse:
>The LORD will lay bare his holy armin the sight of all the 
>nations,and all the ends of the earth will seethe salvation of our 
>God.(Isaiah 52:10, NIV)
>In fact, the entire chapter is talking about Israel's captivity. 
>Ithink the message is blatantly clear from the context. Chapter 
>52talks about Israel's captivity; 53 talks about their treatment 
>andcomportment; and 54 talks about their return from this captivity. 
>(Irealize that the references go back-and-forth within the section, 
>butthis is the basic thrust of the text.)
>I still am puzzled by the confusion that this text causes when 
>iftaken in context it makes perfect sense.
>-- Yonah Mishael ben AvrahamJoplin, 
>MOyonahmishael at gmail.com______________________________________________ 
>_b-hebrew mailing 
>listb-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinf 

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