[b-hebrew] Daniel 11:22
kwrandolph at gmail.com
Wed Sep 6 22:16:25 EDT 2006
On 9/5/06, Steve Miller <smille10 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > From: K Randolph Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:00 PM
> > Steve:
> > We have to look at when this seventy sevens started, and when they ended.
> > I see it as Nehemiah, who was given the specific job of rebuilding the
> > city and its walls, as the beginning. The dates for that action are
> > uncertain, so I took the middle between the extremes I found and ended
> > up with 415 BC.
> [Steve Miller] How do you get 415 BC for one of those decrees? Darby uses
> the decree in Neh. 2:1 which he dates at 455 B.C.
Darby was trying to correlate his date with his theology. But Nehemiah
was a contemporary with Ezra, as his references in chaps 8 and 12
indicate. Dates I have seen from other sources range from 390 to 440
> >Seven sevens of years after that, or 49 years, comes
> > to a decade before the scholarly consensus as to the birth of
> > Alexander the Great, who certainly was a great leader of men. Because
> > the consensus is often close but can be off (10 years is closer than
> > many other disputed dates I have seen) I take this one to be
> > Alexander.
> [Steve Miller] Since the Daniel 9 says 7 weeks to an "anointed ruler", it
> should be to his becoming an anointed ruler, not his birth.
Where is that a requirement in Tanakh? As I recall in Jeremiah, his
calling, metaphorical annointing, happened before he was born.
> Also, regarding such a great prophesy, for which Daniel prayed earnestly,
> and the prayer is recorded in the Bible, I think it should refer to someone
> whom the Bible itself calls an anointed ruler. Also, the 70 weeks are
> concerning Israel, not the world. Alexander was not that important to
Actually he was, for he ushered in the Hellenistic age. While during
his lifetime he may not have had direct influence on Judea, his long
term influence was undeniable.
> > 62 sevens of years brings us to the Roman period, shortly after Pilot
> > became governor.
> [Steve Miller] 415 B.C. + 62x7(=434)yrs = 20 A.D. Who was the messiah cut
> off after 62 weeks?
When did Jesus live? There is still question of the exact years. I
have a different reading on the trial under Pilate than most people:
he had no concern for Jesus, rather he was toying with the crowd with
Jesus as a pawn, using the desire of Caiaphas to have Jesus killed as
a pretext to get him to acquiesce to Roman rule. Notice, the moment
the crowd cried out that they had no king other than Caesar, then
Pilate stopped his delaying tactics. Pilate had what he wanted.
> > 69 sevens brings us to the beginning of the Jewish Revolt, which
> > lasted seven years, midway through which the sacrifices were stopped
> > and the leader that put down the revolt became emperor.
> > Conclusion, the annointed leader in Daniel 9:25 was Alexander the Great.
> > Karl W. Randolph.
I was taught that most of the dates we see in history books are
approximates, scholarly consensus dates, not exactly known. Everything
I have seen since college has only strengthened that conviction. Most
of the time they are close enough that we don't think about them. In
other words, if they are within a decade of accuracy, it won't change
our understanding of events. But sometimes they can lead to how we
understand things. For example, using a discussion that we had
previously on this list, was Raamses II the pharaoh of the Exodus
(very unlikely), or the pharaoh who sacked Jerusalem after Solomon's
death, or someone so unimportant from a Biblical standpoint that he
was not mentioned?
Now the picture I get from the New Testament is that Jesus was killed
shortly after Pilate arrived in Judea, probably a few months to almost
a year. Further, the text of Daniel indicates that Messiah was killed
_after_ 62 sevens of years, in other words, it could have been three
or four years later and still fit the prophecy. Add to the mix the
uncertainty of dates as correlated to our modern calendar, and we have
the possibility that Jesus was killed in 23 AD or thereabouts.
Now I'm not on a crusade to try to change anyone's understanding on
the dates, just giving what I understand. As I said, most of the time,
even if dates are off by a decade or more, it won't change our
understanding of events, so most of the time to argue about dates is
not worth it. But sometimes the recognition that the dates are
educated guesses and may be off by some years should make us not so
dogmatic when looking at ancient events.
Karl W. Randolph.
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