[b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25

Yigal Levin leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il
Wed Sep 6 02:59:01 EDT 2006


Liz and all,

We are forgetting the fact that 7 is a typological "magic number" in the 
Tanakh and in later Judaism, and likewise its multiples. Assuming that the 
various sets of sevens refer to real dates is expecting too much of the 
text. Also, assuming that Daniel was "really" written after the events that 
he "prophecises", that is, after the fall of both Babylon and Persia, any 
attempt to "break his code" is only guesswork, since we do not have a full 
account of the events of the 4-2 centuries, and we certainly don't know what 
events would have seemed very important to whatever group the author of 
Daniel belonged to.


Yigal Levin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried at umich.edu>
To: "'B-Hebrew'" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25


> Dear All,
> First, from the utterance of the word regarding the rebuilding of 
> Jerusalem
> to the coming of an anointed prince is 7 weeks, i.e., 49 years. The word 
> is
> Jeremiah's, and that was probably uttered at the time of the first
> deportation, so let's say it was uttered in 586, so we have 537 for the
> coming of an anointed prince. So, that has to be either Cyrus, or Jeshua, 
> or
> Zerubbabel. I'm betting it's Jeshua, since he would have been the only one
> actually physically anointed.
> Now,
> After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have
> nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the 
> city
> and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there
> shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
> If we are counting a real 62 weeks from the previous, a real, 434 years,
> then it comes to about 104. The anointed one is the high priest, he shall 
> be
> cut off and left with nothing. John Hyrcanus, I suppose. The troops ('am) 
> of
> the ruler (nagid)
> shall destroy the city. This refers to a foreign ruler, but I have to read
> up on what happened then after the death of John Hyrcanus.
> But I have always assumed that these aren't reliable numbers, that the
> chronology was off, and that the foreign ruler is Antiochus IV, and the
> anointed prince who was cut off was Onias III.
> Liz Fried
>
>> > From: Lisbeth S. Fried Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:33 PM
>> >
>> > How does it make clear that it is not the high priest?
>>
>> [Steve Miller] Because nageed refers to kings, not priests. The high
> priest
>> is called nageed only as ruler over specific things, i.e. over certain
>> Levites, or over the house of God. He is never called an unqualified
> nageed.
>> Just as I am ruler over my house and over a few people at work, but I
> would
>> not be called a ruler.
>>
>> > That is who the leader was in the second temple period.
>> [Steve Miller] He may have been acting as the leader, as Jehoida did, but
> he
>> was not anointed to be the leader. If he was high priest, he was anointed
> to
>> be high priest.
>>
>> > How does the time constraint not work?
>> [Steve Miller] He needed to appear either 7 weeks (49 years) or 62 weeks
>> (434 years) or 69 weeks (483 years) after the word to restore and rebuild
>> Jerusalem.
>> -Steve Miller
>> Detroit
>> www.voiceinwilderness.info
>>
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Steve Miller [mailto:smille10 at sbcglobal.net]
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:45 PM
>> > > To: 'Lisbeth S. Fried'; 'B-Hebrew'
>> > > Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25
>> > >
>> > > "maschiach" can refer to a high priest, but "maschiach nageed" makes
> it
>> > > clear that this is not a Levitical priest. Also, the time constraint
>> > does
>> > > not work as pointed out by Harold.
>> > > -Steve
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
>> > > > bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lisbeth S. Fried
>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:26 PM
>> > > > To: 'B-Hebrew'
>> > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25
>> > > >
>> > > > Dear All,
>> > > > You're forgetting the high priest, always the anointed leader of 
>> > > > his
>> > > > people.
>> > > > (e.g. Lev. 8:12).
>> > > > It is probably Onias III or Simon II (the one described in Ben
> Sira).
>> > > > Simon
>> > > > II is credited with restoring Jerusalem. Onias III is cut off and
> has
>> > > > nothing.
>> > > > The troops destroying the sanctuary are those of Antiochus IV.
>> > > > Liz Fried
>> > > >
>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
>> > > > > bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Miller
>> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:15 PM
>> > > > > To: 'Yonah Mishael'; 'B-Hebrew'
>> > > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 11:22
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > > From: Yonah Mishael Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Translating נגיד as "prince" has also led to Christians
>> > translating
>> > > > > > 9:25 of Daniel as "Messiah the Prince," although משיח נגיד 
>> > > > > > would
>> > maybe
>> > > > > > better be understood as "an anointed ruler" (indefinite) or "an
>> > > > > > exalted anointed one" (if נגיד be understood as the adjective
>> > > > > > modifying משיח).
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > What do you make of this?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Yonah
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > Yes, Yonah, I agree with you on the meaning of nageed as ruler. 
>> > > > > In
>> > Dan.
>> > > > > 9:25, who could "mashiach nageed" refer to? The words "mashiach
>> > nageed"
>> > > > > could refer to Cyrus, or an anointed leader of Israel, or to the
>> > > > promised
>> > > > > Messiah. The verse says that "mashiach nageed" is to come either
> 49
>> > yrs
>> > > > or
>> > > > > 693 years after the word to restore and build Jerusalem. This
>> > couldn't
>> > > > be
>> > > > > Cyrus because the word to restore and build Jerusalem was given 
>> > > > > by
>> > Cyrus
>> > > > > (and later Persian kings). Neither was there an outstanding
> anointed
>> > > > ruler
>> > > > > of Israel meeting this time criteria. Thus "maschiach nageed" in
>> > > > Dan.9:25
>> > > > > must mean the Messiah.
>> > > > > -Steve Miller
>> > > > > Detroit
>> > > > > www.voiceinwilderness.info
>>
>>
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