[b-hebrew] Tanach book order - different in Christian Bibles

Philippe Wajdenbaum pwajdenbaum at hotmail.com
Sat Sep 2 21:51:49 EDT 2006

Dear Harold,

you wrote:

HH: The two men you mention have had a deadening disbelief that they
want to pass on to others. Don't fall victim to a theory that would deny
to Israel its ancient history and to Christians the historical
foundations of their faith. Their schemes make the Old Testament a
misrepresentation of reality. They are like the Holocaust deniers, only
they take things a step farther. They take God's glory through history
away from Israel.

PW: I have come to those conclusions by my own findings, and after that I 
got to read Thompson's work and find it correct. I would never deny the 
holocaust, being the grand-child of a holocaust survivor. To discuss about 
the dating of the Bible is one thing, the holocaust is another one; and I 
find it easy to disregard some well argumented theories only because they 
hurt our beliefs.
But yes, these theories do ruin both judaism and christianism if they are 
right. The problem with those archeologists is that they sometimes lack of 
evidences. I think I have some strong evidences, by the comparision of 
biblical texts and Greek texts. The question of who copied who is a 
difficult one, but I try consider it only with rationnality, not with faith.
Just one example: most biblical scholars avoid the big question mark that 
lies in Plato's Laws, written around 350 BC. This book is extremely similar 
to the Torah, it seems to be the project for it: let's conquer a land, 
divide it into twelves lots given to twelves tribes, and let's give them 
sacred laws forever. And let us tell the people some stories so that they 
will obey the laws willingly. Eusebius of Caesarae noticed that (Evangelic 
Preparation 12), and concluded that Plato copied Moses. But in the 21st 
century, do we still have to believe this? Why couldn't it be the opposite? 
Or at least, why can we not compare those texts; as no one ever did it since 
Eusebius in the 4th century?
And it is not only with Plato that one can find surprising parallels: all 
the Greeks authors show some.
Who copied who?


Philippe Wajdenbaum

Dear Karl,

you wrote:

>You make the assumption that if a word is found in Greek as well as a
>Semitic language, that it had its origin in Greek (or proto-Greek). I
>don't agree with that assumption (for one, I find it chauvenistic and
>two, there are no historical nor linguistic reasons to make that
>assumption). It is common that the names of objects are adopted into
>new languages with technology transfer, e.g. "computer" is known world
>wide. Who had the technology first? Often we don't have enough data to
>answer. Therefore you cannot assert that these were Greek instruments,
>therefore Daniel was a late writing.
>My understanding is that the only reason that Daniel is dated late by
>several authors is because his descriptions are too detailed to be
>chance, yet are accurate. But the prophecy of the seventy sevens of
>years, starting with the rebuilding of Jeursalem under Nehemiah ca.
>415 BC give or take a few years, ending in a time of a seven year war,
>midway through which the sacrifices were stopped (the temple was
>destroyed) and other details, either Daniel was written after the
>Jewish revolt of 67 AD or this is true prophecy.
>Karl W. Randolph.
P.W. : There is nothing I can answer if you believe that Daniel is true 
prophecy. So I suppose it is the same for Noah's prophecy concerning Japhet 
dwelling in the tents of Shem (Gn. 9) and of Bileam about the fleats coming 
from Kittim (Nb. 24). Kittim is the son of Yavan, son of Japhet, all of them 
impersonating the Greeks; to me it is strong evidence of late writing of the 
Torah. Or it is true prophecy , but I don't believe it.
I am not trying to push those theories in a provocative way, I think that a 
100% hellenistic Bible is a possiblity, and it is not so dissapointing for 
me, on the contrary, I admire the intelligence of the writers who created a 
perfect synthesis of Greek litterature.
And about the way you count the seven times seventy years, it lies on some 
contradictory data from Nehemia and Ezra; some scholars think it matches 
with the year of the profanation of the temple by Antiochos IV, wich seems a 
reasonable conclusion.
Finaly, there are linguistic evidences for the instruments: sumphonia has a 
Greek etymology, "sum" meaning "toghether" as in many Greek words, and 
"phonia" meanging "to hear, to sound"; wich gave "symphony", different 
instruments playing togheter. There is no semitic root to that word. I 
really doubt that Nabuchodonosor had such instrument; at least not with that 


Philippe Wajdenbaum
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