[b-hebrew] Septuagint vs Hebrew, effect on Christianity - Isaiah 53:9

Steve Miller smille10 at sbcglobal.net
Sat Oct 14 18:09:17 EDT 2006



> From: Schmuel Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 11:14 AM
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> Isaiah 53:9 (KJB)
> And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death;
> because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
> (1611 footnote...Heb. deathes)
> 
> Steve Miller
> > 3) Isa 53:9 And he put his grave with the wicked; and with a rich man in
> his  death; (LXX & DSS)
> >   .... in his deaths (MT). "in his deaths" does not make sense & is used
> no other place in the Bible.
> 
> Yonah Mishael -
> >Do you assume that it is "correct" simply because it agrees with the New
> Testament? That begs the question for sure. Would you clarify? Is that the
> claim that you're making?
> 
> Schmuel
> Actually there is no problem with either the Masoretic text of Isaiah 53:9
> or the Greek OT translation of the same verse or the common English
> translation of 'his death' (Jewish and Christian versions). Any way it is
> properly spliced there is no NT/Tanach dissonance (despite some anti-mish
> claims to that effect).
> 
> =================================
[Steve Miller] Yes, you could say that there is no NT/Tanach/LXX dissonance
here, because of the 3, only Tanach is Hebrew, and the difference is small.
But both DSS and MT cannot be correct here. I believe DSS is correct,
because it makes a lot more sense, and agrees with the usage of "death" in
the rest of the Tanach. 
Also can anyone tell me if there are multiple copies of Isa 53 in DSS, and
do all say "in his death", not "in his deaths"? thanks.

Similarly for Psalm 22:16: There are 2 DSS witnesses and the LXX to "they
digged" over "like a lion". And "like a lion" does not make sense. And it is
also not vowelled as "like a lion".
Neither Ps 22:16, nor Isa 53:9 is quoted in the NT, so that is not my reason
for saying that the DSS is correct here.

> 
> Psalm 22:16 is a whole nother story.  At any rate the verbal reading is a
> minority
> reading in the Masoretic text and reflected in the Masorah so you could
> approach
> it as a textual question similar to many in the New Testament.  Nothing is
> 'wrong'.
> 
> On Isaiah 7:14 the root problem is generally a one-dimensional recent
> understanding
> of almah. Especially with the DSS strongly supporting the word, and no
> Hebrew variant,
> any claim that it is wrong in the Hebrew comes from a confused
> presumption.
> The Hebrew is accurate, the Greek OT is a defendable translation, the rest
> is history.
> 

[Steve Miller] The error in the MT Isa 7:14 is not almah, but וְקָרָאת (and
she shall call). The DSS has וְקָרָא (and he shall call), which is best
translated as Matthew did in 1:23 with the 3rd person indefinite pronoun
"and they shall call". I believe the DSS is correct because it agrees with
the NT and approximately with the LXX (and you shall call). Also, does
anyone know if there are multiple DSS copies of Isa 7:14, and do they all
say "and he shall call"?
Thanks,
-Steve Miller
Detroit
www.voiceinwilderness.info





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