[b-hebrew] Judges 16:30 - Verb with no use, MY PROBLEM!

B. M. Rocine brocine at twcny.rr.com
Tue Oct 3 19:36:38 EDT 2006

Dear Kelton,

Not to answer for Peter, but to support him:

I think clauses constructed with the verbal root HYH are not equivalent 
to noun sentences (a.k.a. verbless clause).  In other words, I do not 
think of HYH as a copula.  Rather it means refers essentially to a 

On the other hand, we can't force a particular wooden translation to 
work in every case of HYH.  Sometimes HYH can even refer to someone 
"coming along" as in movement to a place.

Genesis 2:25 in particular would be something like this:  "They came 
into being naked."

Hoping to help.


kgraham0938 at comcast.net wrote:
> Hello Peter, 
> I am curious about your statement about WAYIH:YW = become as opposed to 'were.'  What do you think is the difference btw Judges 16:30 and Genesis 2:25?
> WAYIH:YW $N"HEM `RWMMIYM....  would you translate this as "They became naked.." or am I misreading your point?  Thanks
> --
> Kelton Graham 
> KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net
> -------------- Original message -------------- 
> From: Peter Kirk <peter at qaya.org> 
>> On 03/10/2006 18:08, Chris and Nel wrote: 
>>> ... I am so used to 
>>> reading sentences without "to be " in them that I still can not fathom its 
>>> purpose here, considering that without it I actually arrived at the correct 
>>> translation without looking at the English. 
>>> Now can someone be kind enough pleeeease..... to relieve me of my making a 
>>> fool of 
>>> myself on this board? 
>> The distinction may be that sentences in which "to be" is omitted are 
>> usually (always?) stative, indicating a continuing state, like English 
>> "be", whereas those starting with WAYHIY, and here with its plural form 
>> WAYIHYUW, indicate actions, like English "became". Thus a literal 
>> translation would be "And the dead... became more than the dead...". The 
>> meaning is of course "More people died... than...", an action. A 
>> translation like Kelton's "Those who were dead ... *were* many, more 
>> than..." is misleading because it suggests a state, a count of bodies 
>> already dead. But in fact we have an action here, a large number of 
>> people dying. (Dare I suggest a prototype of today's suicide bombers, 
>> except here we have an Israelite killing Gentiles in Gaza?) 

B. M. Rocine
Living Word Church
6101 Court St. Rd.
Syracuse, NY 13026
(W): 315.437.6744

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