[b-hebrew] Fw: "Desire of Women" in Heb. Text of Dan. 11:37

Arthur Gershman gershman18 at msn.com
Wed Nov 15 09:28:24 EST 2006

Dear HH,
Thank you for your clarification.
"May the Messiah come speedily in our days."
Best regards,
Art Gershman

Ben Zoma said: Who is wise?  Those who learn from all people.  Pirkei Avot 4:1
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Harold Holmyard<mailto:hholmyard at ont.com> 
  To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org> 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:03 AM
  Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Fw: "Desire of Women" in Heb. Text of Dan. 11:37

  Arthur Gershman wrote:
  >> Dear Friends,
  >> We are at an impasse as to how to define "bible."  Is it Torah, Tanakh, or
  >> does it include the so-called New Testament.  Let's decide.
  Art, this issue seems immaterial for the purposes of our discussion. I 
  know that Jewish people do not include the New Testament in their Bible, 
  and I would never try to force it into their Bible, even for the 
  purposes of discussion. But all of us accept Haggai into the Bible, for 
  we all accept the Jewish Bible as the Bible. Some of us include the New 
  Testament in their Bible.

  My quotation of the Book of Hebrews was not to claim biblical authority 
  for the interpretation of Haggai 2:7 there, although I do understand it 
  that way. It was to show Yitzhak that some first century Jews 
  interpreted it of a futuristic fulfillment and could build arguments 
  with other people on the basis of that assumed shared understanding.

  This conforms with a considerable amount of Jewish writing in Enoch, 4th 
  Ezra, some Dead Sea Scrolls, and other texts that came to see the 
  Messiah as an eschatological figure. I believe this understanding is 
  already present in the Tanakh and is the basis for the later writing. I 
  accept that Haggai 2:7 is speaking in an eschatological context of 
  events that come at the end of the age. Haggai 2:7 ties in with 2:23 by 
  the figure of a world shaking, and 2:23 can speak symbolically of the 

  Yitzhak argues that a Messianic text in 2:23 would necessarily include 
  an explanation of the symbology, as in Zechariah. However, if the world 
  shaking was understood to be eschatological, such an explanation would 
  not be necessary, since obviously Zerubbabel did not survive that long 
  and must be seen to represent someone else, the Davidic chosen  leader.

  As I said, many details in Zechariah are not explained fully but are 
  left to the insight of the reader to piece together with other biblical 
  information. And Zechariah speaks of the Davidic king in terms like the 
  "branch" (Zech 3:8, 6:12) that are borrowed from earlier prophets (Isa 
  11:1; Jer 23:5;  Ezek 17:22).

  There was a prophetic understanding of an eschatological Messiah, so 
  Haggai in 2:23 could be  prophetically adding to that stream of 
  revelation about this figure, who is described in many ways but 
  especially as a Davidic king.

  Harold Holmyard

  Harold Holmyard
  b-hebrew mailing list
  b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>

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