[b-hebrew] Fw: "Desire of Women" in Heb. Text of Dan. 11:37

Harold Holmyard hholmyard at ont.com
Wed Nov 15 09:03:59 EST 2006


Arthur Gershman wrote:
>> Dear Friends,
>> We are at an impasse as to how to define "bible."  Is it Torah, Tanakh, or
>> does it include the so-called New Testament.  Let's decide.
>>     
Art, this issue seems immaterial for the purposes of our discussion. I 
know that Jewish people do not include the New Testament in their Bible, 
and I would never try to force it into their Bible, even for the 
purposes of discussion. But all of us accept Haggai into the Bible, for 
we all accept the Jewish Bible as the Bible. Some of us include the New 
Testament in their Bible.

My quotation of the Book of Hebrews was not to claim biblical authority 
for the interpretation of Haggai 2:7 there, although I do understand it 
that way. It was to show Yitzhak that some first century Jews 
interpreted it of a futuristic fulfillment and could build arguments 
with other people on the basis of that assumed shared understanding.

This conforms with a considerable amount of Jewish writing in Enoch, 4th 
Ezra, some Dead Sea Scrolls, and other texts that came to see the 
Messiah as an eschatological figure. I believe this understanding is 
already present in the Tanakh and is the basis for the later writing. I 
accept that Haggai 2:7 is speaking in an eschatological context of 
events that come at the end of the age. Haggai 2:7 ties in with 2:23 by 
the figure of a world shaking, and 2:23 can speak symbolically of the 
Messiah.

Yitzhak argues that a Messianic text in 2:23 would necessarily include 
an explanation of the symbology, as in Zechariah. However, if the world 
shaking was understood to be eschatological, such an explanation would 
not be necessary, since obviously Zerubbabel did not survive that long 
and must be seen to represent someone else, the Davidic chosen  leader.

As I said, many details in Zechariah are not explained fully but are 
left to the insight of the reader to piece together with other biblical 
information. And Zechariah speaks of the Davidic king in terms like the 
"branch" (Zech 3:8, 6:12) that are borrowed from earlier prophets (Isa 
11:1; Jer 23:5;  Ezek 17:22).

There was a prophetic understanding of an eschatological Messiah, so 
Haggai in 2:23 could be  prophetically adding to that stream of 
revelation about this figure, who is described in many ways but 
especially as a Davidic king.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard



Yours,
Harold Holmyard



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