[b-hebrew] daughters jacob never spoke of

Shoshanna Walker rosewalk at concentric.net
Thu Jun 22 14:27:39 EDT 2006

So how many fathers do I have, if there were three "forefathers", 
Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov?

I know you are teasing me, though....

So you didn't need Oral Torah to teach you that Avraham showed 
courage in leaving the security of his family, but that isn't what is 
referred to by saying that the Torah emphasizes that Avraham was a 
man of faith.  It is specifically faith in G-d that the Torah teaches 
about Avraham - and courage has a different meaning than faith 
anyway.  Without Oral Torah you wouldn't know that G-d tested his 
faith with 10 tests.

Although it may not be applicable to you, without Oral Torah there 
are many Mitzvot that we wouldn't know how to perform, because the 
details of how to perform them were not included in the written text. 
Deut. 12:21 - "As I have commanded you"  Where did G-d command us how 
to perform slaughter?

Or "You shall keep Shabbat holy, as I have commanded your fathers" 
Jeremiah 17:22.  Where did G-d command us exactly in detail how to 
keep the Shabbat holy?

Rav Aryeh Kaplan explains it better than I am able: 

And what apparent contradictions between Oral and Written Torah are 
you referring to?  How can you make that statement when you haven't 
learned Oral Torah?

I don't mean to be disrespectful to those on this list who don't 
believe that Torah consists of Oral and Written Torah, but if, from 
time to time, I am able to cite how some of our Commentaries explain 
verses that you are discussing, do you mind?  Some of our Sages and 
Commentaries were famous as Biblical Hebrew linguists, shouldn't 
their input be included here?


Shoshanna wrote:
Abraham merited being one of our avos (forefathers).  His 2 most
famous character traits were that of a man of FAITH and
charity/chesed.  Hashem subjected him to 10 tests of faith, he passed
all of them.  This abduction of Sarah by Avimelech was one of these
tests.  He therefore was not a coward.

JCR: If Abraham was one of your fathers wouldn't that
make you one of his daughters?

Also, I think I agree with you that the word 'coward'
was a poor choice of word as Abraham had already shown
great courage in leaving the security of his family
to go and reside amongst foreigners who might decide
to kill him at any moment.

However, one observation I would like to make is that
I don't need any oral torah to reach this conclusion
as the information given in the actual torah is more
than sufficient.
Personally, I find it quite enlightening to listen to
your testimonies of what the oral torah has to say
because I don't have a copy and have never had the
chance to read it. However, I do have to agree with the
sentiments expressed by Peter that it would be a little
unreasonably if someone were to expect the list members
to accept the oral torah as Yah's word especially where
there are apparent contradictions with the testimony of
the real torah.

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